Did Prophet Muhammad hear Allah's voice when he produced the Qur'an?

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Permalink Reply by Sister Hanifa on September 13, 2009 at 6:34am

I am still reading..........You all are welcome to keep commenting. This is great. Mashallah. The kind of building and interacting that we should be having on here!

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Permalink Reply by Hadayai Majeed on September 13, 2009 at 7:39am

Allah spoke through his conscious mind like he speaks to us when we read the Quran. Allah created us so we are like clay under his will.

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Permalink Reply by Abu Sufyan on September 13, 2009 at 9:47am

Hamdulillah, decent deductions Nash, good use of logic on something tangible such as Quranic Arabic, which I still believe is to deep for anyone discussing here to be talking about in depth, but a commendable job. Secondly Hamzah, I can see the train of thought, but now what you are talking about (Allah's Voice) and going into is... Dun Dun Dun..... Kalam.... Theology... That isn't so tangible though people use tangible sources. What is so subjective about it is, you can use logic and good strong logic and sources to say Allah did not speak to the Prophet in voice, while I can do the same thing to say he indeed did speak directly to the Prophet (s) on different occasions. So who is right? Is no one wrong? How do we really know? How sure are we, when we speak of what Allah can, and cannot do, did, and did not do?

وَإِذۡ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةِ إِنِّى جَاعِلٌ۬ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ خَلِيفَةً۬‌ۖ
(2:30) And when thy Lord said (Qaala: He said, Third person, Masculine Singular, referring to the noun Rabuka, literally "your Lord, your God" Allah talking about himself) unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth.

So angels and IBLIS spoke DIRECTLY Allah. So the voice arguement is done as Allah created angels and jinn in the unseen realm. Voice is not the attribute I am giving Allah; I am simply saying he can speak and be heard directly as he clearly says many times in the Quran. Applying tangible science to Allah's speech is automatically null and void as an arguement as I am not saying that natural laws apply to his supernatural voice. Can meanings come to the heart? IF that is what indeed Happened, as there was no source backing up that statement. How come he could not hear it directly with supernatual ears?

My point is this. If Allah can have a direct conversation with IBLIS and the Angels, back and forth (who Allah created by the way)... How come all of a sudden he cannot speak directly to the BEST CREATION ever Rasulullah (s)? What does it take away from Allah to speak and be heard by the Prophet? Did the prophet not say in a SAHIH Hadith that the greatest reward from Paradise is when Allah comes from behind his veils and says "Assalamu Alaika" to see Allah directly as a creation can arguably be deeper than hearing him... Aynul Yaqin (certainty of sight) right?? Perhaps we may be thinking too hard, If I have erred, Allah forgive me.

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Permalink Reply by Nash on September 13, 2009 at 2:38pm

Hamdulillah, decent deductions Nash, good use of logic on something tangible such as Quranic Arabic, which I still believe is to deep for anyone discussing here to be talking about in depth, but a commendable job.

I disagree brother, you as well as other people on here are bringing about some deep insight into the language of the Quran. Its causing me to study and others as well, we are crossing that thresh hold of serious depth into this language. MashaAallah you may think that its too deep but im seeing some strong swimmers in this deep water



Secondly Hamzah, I can see the train of thought, but now what you are talking about (Allah's Voice) and going into is... Dun Dun Dun..... Kalam.... Theology... That isn't so tangible though people use tangible sources. What is so subjective about it is, you can use logic and good strong logic and sources to say Allah did not speak to the Prophet in voice, while I can do the same thing to say he indeed did speak directly to the Prophet (s) on different occasions. So who is right? Is no one wrong? How do we really know? How sure are we, when we speak of what Allah can, and cannot do, did, and did not do?


Its that saying that we say in every salat Allahu Akbar! God is Greater. To me this is saying that He is greater than whatever is on our mind so whatever we concive about Allah be it a hand or voice we should remember that He is greater than that. Allah is giving US something so that we can comprehend a little bit more of who He is. But whatever we have comprehended …He is greater..

وَإِذۡ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةِ إِنِّى جَاعِلٌ۬ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ خَلِيفَةً۬‌ۖ
(2:30) And when thy Lord said (Qaala: He said, Third person, Masculine Singular, referring to the noun Rabuka, literally "your Lord, your God" Allah talking about himself) unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth.

So angels and IBLIS spoke DIRECTLY Allah. So the voice arguement is done as Allah created angels and jinn in the unseen realm. Voice is not the attribute I am giving Allah; I am simply saying he can speak and be heard directly as he clearly says many times in the Quran. Applying tangible science to Allah's speech is automatically null and void as an arguement as I am not saying that natural laws apply to his supernatural voice. Can meanings come to the heart? IF that is what indeed Happened, as there was no source backing up that statement. How come he could not hear it directly with supernatual ears?

My point is this. If Allah can have a direct conversation with IBLIS and the Angels, back and forth (who Allah created by the way)... How come all of a sudden he cannot speak directly to the BEST CREATION ever Rasulullah (s)? What does it take away from Allah to speak and be heard by the Prophet?

The Angels nor Iblis spoke directly to God from my understanding, This same ayat that you have mentioned is timeless. It speaks to all nations and all times, Allah says that He’s going to place a kalifa on the earth. If we look at the rise and fall off nations we see that same kalifa coming everytime we see a Prophet coming to these people. Muhammad was a kalifa Islam is a kalifa this is speaking about a religious order to be placed within the earth. This speaking that Allah is doing not a physical speaking why?? Because Allah is greater than this type of thinking on Him.

Look at when the Prophet went on the night journey, Jabril took Muhamad to a place and said that if he goes any further than he would be no more. Jabril stopped and Muhammad went on. Why? If the Angels and Iblis spoke directly to God why did Jabril stop and said he would be no more if Allah speaks to him directly?

The Prophet only went on to speak to Allah from behind a veil. Even in the Quran people asked why Allah did not speak to them these evil people are literally asking for Allah to speak to them in the manner in which we speak to each other. This word Qala also means to inspire as well and we all know that the Prophets were inspired by Allah. How does Allah speak to us now?? How can we hear Allahs voice? If we read the Quran and we are blessed to have some understanding of it then Allah is not only speaking to us He is teaching us as well. I think we miss the bigger picture if we reduce the talking in the Quran to mere common speaking.

This is a Book that yes speaks on all levels and to all levels however its sent to bring out the best in mankind. So the best thinking on Allah in my opinion is not to subject him to our level of communication between each other. This is a much much higher avenue of communicating to us. Allah doesn’t speak to us unless our hearts are pure, and when one is blessed with understanding from Allah they say always when asked where do they get that from they
Say Allah but always the evil ones say right, show me this Allah or tell Him to speak to me.
This speaking is an inspiration and the way in which Allah speaks to his messengers is on a high level of communicating.

Did the prophet not say in a SAHIH Hadith that the greatest reward from Paradise is when Allah comes from behind his veils and says "Assalamu Alaika" to see Allah directly as a creation can arguably be deeper than hearing him... Aynul Yaqin (certainty of sight) right?? Perhaps we may be thinking too hard, If I have erred, Allah forgive me.

Yes brother you got that right and this seeing takes place on a different level of seeing. Remember we have to die before we see any of that, we have to leave behind this material body, and we will have a new body in paradise. (Im getting dat perfect 6 pack yall lol). So our hearing and seeing Allah would be on a different level of hearing and seeing . The same afterlife the Prophets had true vision into this but their sight was not the sight that we precieve. Nor was their hearing the same that we precieve.

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Permalink Reply by sofia parveen on September 16, 2009 at 5:13pm

Hamdulillah, decent deductions Nash, good use of logic on something tangible such as Quranic Arabic, which I still believe is to deep for anyone discussing here to be talking about in depth, but a commendable job. Excuse me? lolz, we are all enjoying the deep discussion here,we may not understand everything but enjoying non the less!lol! Just make sure you carry on breaking it down for us.

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 19, 2009 at 2:49pm

Alhamdulillah, we agree on the fact that the Prophet didn't read the scripture, we just disagree if he actually read words on a page.

If you read all of those ayat and come to the conclusion that these daleel all point to him reading but just not reading the scripture, you are obligated to decide for yourself (of course). I disagree with your conclusion though.

I wouldn't mind debating this issue in length, but I think the more we debate on it the further we stray from the spirit of the message behind it. Allah knows best.

That being said, how does this discussion relate to building a sound religious education in our American (or Bermudian) community? I think that would be a more fruitful discourse. Allah knows best.



Nash said:

ASA
Really enjoying this class you guys I was also looking at the word QARA’A which means to read. Or read a written thing, it also means proclaim, recite with or without having script. Sura 16 - An-Nahl (MAKKA) : Verse 98 When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the Rejected one


Sura 17 - Al-Isra (MAKKA) : Verse 14
(It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) book: sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."
Translation : Eng-Yusuf Ali

Sura 17 - Al-Isra (MAKKA) : Verse 78
Establish regular prayers at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
Translation : Eng-Yusuf Ali

Sura 17 - Al-Isra (MAKKA) : Verse 93
"Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we could read." Say: "Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man a messenger?"
Translation : Eng-Yusuf Ali

Sura 17 - Al-Isra (MAKKA) : Verse 71
One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.
Translation : Eng-Yusuf Ali


Sura 69 - Al-Haaqqa (MAKKA) : Verse 19
Then He that will be given his Record in his right hand will say: "Ah here! read ye my Record!
Translation : Eng-Yusuf Ali

Sura 73 - Al-Muzzammil (MAKKA) : Verse 20
The Lord doth know that thou standest forth (to prayer) nigh two-thirds of the night, or half the night, or a third of the night, and so doth a party of those with thee. But Allah doth appoint Night and Day in due measure. He knoweth that ye are unable to keep count thereof. So He hath turned to you (in mercy): read ye, therefore, of the Qur'an as much as may be easy for you

Sura 96 - Al-Alaq (MAKKA) : Verse 1
Proclaim! (or Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created
96:3 Read! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful

So here we have Allah saying READ even the word Quran means that which is to be Read or that which is read, Surah 16 ‘’When you Read the Quran seek Allahs protection” clearly this is showing that Allah is establishing an education system of reading,(correct reading) So if we even look at Iqra this is a much deeper command,calling one to read. Lets try this..everybody close your eyes and reflect on the name Allah… what do you see??

That’s reading!!

Language is symbols all throughout time Prophets and mankind relate by symbols. What were he symbols in the Prophets time for expressing Arabic language? How is it or rather how can the Prophet tell us to do something that he himself cant do? He tells captives to teach people how to read he tells us to read and the whole time he cannot read?? What is a person called who tells you to do something that they themselves donot do??

Now lets take a look at this ayat….
Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:44 Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?

If we say that the Prophet never knew how to read then this ayat can be attributed to the Prophet. How can the Prophet enjoin the right conduct of education of learning how to read and write on the community and forget practiced it himself?? Of course we all know that this does not apply to the Prophet. Weve seen brilliant scholarly Imams giving lectures and have nothing written down, yet his students record everything. Some of these Imams we don’t even know if they can truly read or write. Yet the wisdom that spills forth from them makes that thought never even enter our minds.

Look at this ayat
قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنِّي رَسُولُ اللّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعًا الَّذِي لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ يُحْيِـي وَيُمِيتُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ النَّبِيِّ الأُمِّيِّ الَّذِي يُؤْمِنُ بِاللّهِ وَكَلِمَاتِهِ وَاتَّبِعُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ
7:158 (Y. Ali) day: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided

Now look at this ayat


هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ (62:2)

62:2 (Y. Ali) It is He Who has sent amongst the unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error

Here we have the same word but we have in the first ayat an unlettered Prophet and in this ayat we have people who are unlettered. Question who is the unlettered? If we say that ummiy means that the Prophet could not read or write then the same word that is used must apply to the people as well. Now if the Arabs could not read or write either then how did they record what the Prophet said?? How did Ali write down a letter being dictated to him by the Prophet?? All of a sudden he knew how to write?? But wait theres that word ummi which is means to some that Muhammad could not read or write. Now here Allah says that he sent an rasoolan amongst the unlettered people.

So the very same people that cant read or write are given the responsibility to record the Quran on bones and leaves???????

This reading this being ummi is talking about scripture, being unlettered in scripture


2:78 (Y. Ali) And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture


This knowing not the Book is not talking about them not being able to read the Book. They don’t have any understanding of the Book and most don’t know the Book,even the Quran, some can recite all day and not understand a single word or apply the Quran in their lives. The same is with the people of the Book. They are not truly reading the Book.
If I pick up the Quran and read that it says to stay away from intoxicants then I go and smoke weed and cigarettes and say that weed is natural and cigarettes is not haram then I am not able to read the Quran properly I am unlettered in its meanings. And if I publish something backing up my thoughts then I can neither write nor read when it comes to scripture.In fact I will be speaking from my own desires, something which the Meccans ,Jews and Christians at that time were famous for doing and Muhammad was told to tell them that he says nothing on his own.

For fear of writing to much I will stop here but im really enjoying this discussion

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Permalink Reply by Omar on September 20, 2009 at 12:24am

Taken from Introduction to Islam by Dr. Zahid Aziz:

27. Why are angels necessary to bring God's messages to man?

Just as light is needed as a medium for our eyes to see things, and air is needed to carry sound to our ears, similarly an agency is required to activate our spiritual senses. The angels are that agency. They bring God's messages to the 'inner' eyes and ears of righteous people, and also cast good and noble thoughts into the 'hearts' of all people. But it is only the righteous who, because of their highly­developed spiritual senses, may be able to perceive the working of angels.

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Permalink Reply by Nash on September 20, 2009 at 4:13pm

Alhamdulillah, we agree on the fact that the Prophet didn't read the scripture, we just disagree if he actually read words on a page.
Yes


If you read all of those ayat and come to the conclusion that these daleel all point to him reading but just not reading the scripture, you are obligated to decide for yourself (of course). I disagree with your conclusion though.

Cool man

I wouldn't mind debating this issue in length, but I think the more we debate on it the further we stray from the spirit of the message behind it. Allah knows best.

I disagree brother because, Allah stresses for us to think all the time and not just simple thinking, to really think! The more we study and pass our thinking around the more we actually gain from one another. The spirit of the message is to bring out the best inside of us and that same spirit calls for us to think. We only stray when we stop thinking and say that all the thinking has been done already. I believe that the spirit is still strong and it was a blessing learning from each other
I do agree that Allah knows best

That being said, how does this discussion relate to building a sound religious education in our American (or Bermudian) community? I think that would be a more fruitful discourse. Allah knows best.

Well a discussion like this shows how we as muslims should be when it comes to the education in our communities. We should never down people we should always take the best and we should share. To build a sound religious education we need people in positions that do not restrict thinking and encourage people to think more on the Quran and never ever flash read. And also this discussion relating to building a sound muslim community is only relevant if one can make it relate to their needs. If im discussing electricity can it relate if your interest is on eating a bag of chips? Only if you can see that you need electricity in order to make the chips or the chip bag.

However if its not relevant to you then it will never be relevant to you at all. That being said ..education is vast when a question is asked the questioner is seeking an answer. As muslims we try our best to give an answer that hopefully will guide that person and if they are guided then it is not the person who has brought the questioner to an answer it is Allah guiding that person to a better understanding.

So here in a discussion like this we have sound religious education taking place and if an understanding of a question is understood then we see Allah working through certain people and those people in no way shape or form take the credit if someone better understands the religion. Now to force ones thinking on another is wrong and that is not education its tyranny. But to allow people to think and come to the best thinking on this religion then that is not only education it is a blessing from G-d and freedom and builds strong individual Muslims

Oh i almost forgot......
EID MUBARAK!!!!!!!!!

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Permalink Reply by Ayman Zarif on September 21, 2009 at 12:49pm

no, Allah did not speak directlly to the prophet......it was the angel that spoke to the prophet's heart.....and no, the prophet did not write anything....what he said it was from Allah.....later on Allah's word came in the form of a book.........the holy qur'an.thats all for now.......but there is more i have to say....

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Permalink Reply by Ayman Zarif on September 21, 2009 at 12:53pm

one more important thing.....the qur'an and the bible tell us about how the prophet recieve Allah's word.......

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 23, 2009 at 6:06am

I wouldn't mind debating this issue in length, but I think the more we debate on it the further we stray from the spirit of the message behind it. Allah knows best.

I disagree brother because, Allah stresses for us to think all the time and not just simple thinking, to really think! The more we study and pass our thinking around the more we actually gain from one another. The spirit of the message is to bring out the best inside of us and that same spirit calls for us to think. We only stray when we stop thinking and say that all the thinking has been done already. I believe that the spirit is still strong and it was a blessing learning from each other
I do agree that Allah knows best

Eid Mubarak everyone!

I definitely feel what your saying, and I agree with that 100%. Allah and His Messenger encourage us to think critically on all issues of life and reality.

What I was referring to in my last comment was that other people often misunderstand the reasons why we debate so deeply on these kind of issues. Because of this, sometimes this kind of discussion causes people to lose interest in the topic itself. So the discussion might wind up having the opposite affect that is was meant to achieve. That's all I was getting at when I was saying "the spirit of the message behind it." The "spirit" being an increase of faith and increasing the thirst for knowledge and understanding.

So yes, we should discuss everything in depth. However, we should also prioritize what we should talk about and how much we talk about it, especially in a public environment. Allah knows best.

In any case, I agree with what your saying there. Now, we can always resume the debate if you think that's not the case (then we can roll up our sleeves and get the debate rolling again). But that's just something to think about.

So that being said, I'll make a few points about your argument.

-----------------

1) I still haven't seen any evidence from you that even suggests the Prophet reading and writing words on a page. Where is the daleel showing the Prophet picking up a book and reading or writing something for himself? You still haven't brought any evidence for that.

2) You said: So here we have Allah saying READ even the word Quran means that which is to be Read or that which is read, Surah 16 ‘’When you Read the Quran seek Allahs protection” clearly this is showing that Allah is establishing an education system of reading,(correct reading) So if we even look at Iqra this is a much deeper command,calling one to read. Lets try this..everybody close your eyes and reflect on the name Allah… what do you see??

That’s reading!!

C'mon ak, your assuming that visualizing letters in your mind is a "deep" meaning of read... The Prophet was not concerned about the letters on a page, he was concerned about the meanings of what language represents. So it doesn't matter whether or not you can visualize and be all caught up in the letters A L L A H, what matters is your state of being and your relationship with your Creator, not with letters you memorized.

Based on what you said, a person must be able to visualize the letters A L L A H in their mind in order to really understand his/her Creator. I think you missed the mark on that bro.

3) You said: Language is symbols all throughout time Prophets and mankind relate by symbols. What were (t)he symbols in the Prophets time for expressing Arabic language?

Arabic was an oral tradition. This is why the Arabs didn't have libraries like Rome and Persia; because they retained information through memory and eye witness accounts. This is proven time and time again throughout the life of the Prophet.

4) You said: How is it or rather how can the Prophet tell us to do something that he himself cant do? He tells captives to teach people how to read he tells us to read and the whole time he cannot read?? What is a person called who tells you to do something that they themselves donot do??

Now lets take a look at this ayat….
Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:44 Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?

If we say that the Prophet never knew how to read then this ayat can be attributed to the Prophet. How can the Prophet enjoin the right conduct of education of learning how to read and write on the community and forget practiced it himself??

You made a number of assumptions about this ayat that are not there.

According to your logic: READING WORDS ON PAGE = RIGHTEOUSNESS. Since reading words on a page is righteousness, the Prophet had to have read words on a page.

According to your logic: READING WORDS ON A PAGE = RIGHTEOUSNESS. Since reading words on a page is righteousness, the Prophet had to have read and written, since he commanded righteousness.

You first mistake is that you think righteousness is reading, when in reality reading is just one means to know what righteousness is. This is why a person who reads books all day is not inherently righteous. Allah has already defined what He means when He says "righteousness" when He said, "It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing." [2:117]

I don't see "read words on a page" listed here.

So when Allah says, "Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people" He is not speaking about reading words on a page, rather He is speaking about good actions, like prayer, patience, charity, and so forth. Reading and writing are just tools that can be used for anything. And the Prophet didn't need to use those tools himself. Allah knows best.

3) You said: Of course we all know that this does not apply to the Prophet. Weve seen brilliant scholarly Imams giving lectures and have nothing written down, yet his students record everything. Some of these Imams we don’t even know if they can truly read or write. Yet the wisdom that spills forth from them makes that thought never even enter our minds.

True... I would just add that in the Prophets case, he actually said he couldn't read or write, so we know that this is the case.

4) You said: Look at this ayat
قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنِّي رَسُولُ اللّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ جَمِيعًا الَّذِي لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ يُحْيِـي وَيُمِيتُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ النَّبِيِّ الأُمِّيِّ الَّذِي يُؤْمِنُ بِاللّهِ وَكَلِمَاتِهِ وَاتَّبِعُوهُ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ
7:158 (Y. Ali) day: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided

Now look at this ayat


هُوَ الَّذِي بَعَثَ فِي الْأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولًا مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُوا مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ (62:2)

62:2 (Y. Ali) It is He Who has sent amongst the unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error

Here we have the same word but we have in the first ayat an unlettered Prophet and in this ayat we have people who are unlettered. Question who is the unlettered? If we say that ummiy means that the Prophet could not read or write then the same word that is used must apply to the people as well. Now if the Arabs could not read or write either then how did they record what the Prophet said?? How did Ali write down a letter being dictated to him by the Prophet?? All of a sudden he knew how to write?? But wait theres that word ummi which is means to some that Muhammad could not read or write. Now here Allah says that he sent an rasoolan amongst the unlettered people.

So the very same people that cant read or write are given the responsibility to record the Quran on bones and leaves???????

This is pretty straight forward: In the first aya, Allah was speaking about the Prophet specifically, and in the second aya Allah spoke about the people in general.

Let me ask a question: Is America a literate nation? The answer is yes, and not because every single person in America can read and write, but rather because most people in America read and write, and our society is built upon literacy and the written word. This is why we have libraries and archives at the backbone of our civilizaiton.

Now when Allah says that the Prophet came from an illiterate nation, this doesn't necessarily mean that none of the Arabs could read or write, it just meant that most of them couldn't, and that their society did not rely on literacy in order to function properly. So there were people among them who read and wrote words, but this doesn't contradict the fact that they lived in an illiterate society, in the same way that having some illiterate people in America does not mean that America is an illiterate nation. This is why we find some Companions who could read and right during the Prophets time although they lived in an illiterate society.

Now, in the Prophet's case, Allah wanted to be very clear, so He used unambiguous terms and said "the illiterate (or unlettered) Prophet". And this was good because there would probably be people in the future who would say, "Allah said that his people were unlettered, but that doesn't mean that he Prophet himself was unlettered!" Dispelling this false conclusion, Allah spoke about the Prophet specifically to leave no doubt in this issue.

Allah knows best of course.

5) You said: 2:78 (Y. Ali) And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture

This knowing not the Book is not talking about them not being able to read the Book. They don’t have any understanding of the Book and most don’t know the Book,even the Quran, some can recite all day and not understand a single word or apply the Quran in their lives. The same is with the people of the Book. They are not truly reading the Book.
If I pick up the Quran and read that it says to stay away from intoxicants then I go and smoke weed and cigarettes and say that weed is natural and cigarettes is not haram then I am not able to read the Quran properly I am unlettered in its meanings. And if I publish something backing up my thoughts then I can neither write nor read when it comes to scripture.In fact I will be speaking from my own desires, something which the Meccans ,Jews and Christians at that time were famous for doing and Muhammad was told to tell them that he says nothing on his own.

In this aya, Allah isn't defining what illiteracy is, rather He is describing the result of illiteracy in the case of the People of the Book.

Since the Jews relied on the written word to know what is in the Torah, those who were not literate solely depended on those who were literate among them in order to learn the Torah. This is why their knowledge of the scripture was only wishes (amani) and assumptions (uzhunnoon). Since they couldn't read, and since the Torah did not have an oral tradition, the people were left to make baseless assumptions. Christians still have this problem today... They don't have access to the original text, and no one has memorized it, so they rely on translations and written documents in order to make their assumptions about Jesus and God. Since most people 1) don't read Hebrew (or Aramaic) 2) don't memorize their books and 3) don't understand the books language and 4) Aramaic is a dead language anyway, they are then left to assumptions and wishes that are not even mentioned in the original books literally or metaphorically.

A clear example of this is the aya, "And they say: None entereth paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian. These are their own desires. Say: Bring your proof (of what ye state) if ye are truthful." [2:111]

They constantly say things that are not mentioned in their books. So they have no proof to back up their claims.

The Quran, on the other hand, does not have this problem since it is essentially an oral book that is understood through the language itself and how the language is used. The oral tradition and the pure Arabic language is alive and well. Many of us know and understand the Arabic language. And thousands of us have memorized the words verbatim. This is why our predecessors were keen on maintaining and preserving this oral tradition, so we wouldn't be subjects of someone else's written words and make baseless assumptions and wishful thoughts. Thus Allah has provided us with the Prophet as the best example for this. He showed us how to know the Quran without relying on someone else's written words.

Allah knows best.

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Permalink Reply by Nash on October 2, 2009 at 11:01am

I definitely feel what your saying, and I agree with that 100%. Allah and His Messenger encourage us to think critically on all issues of life and reality.

What I was referring to in my last comment was that other people often misunderstand the reasons why we debate so deeply on these kind of issues. Because of this, sometimes this kind of discussion causes people to lose interest in the topic itself. So the discussion might wind up having the opposite affect that is was meant to achieve. That's all I was getting at when I was saying "the spirit of the message behind it." The "spirit" being an increase of faith and increasing the thirst for knowledge and understanding.

So yes, we should discuss everything in depth. However, we should also prioritize what we should talk about and how much we talk about it, especially in a public environment. Allah knows best.

In any case, I agree with what your saying there. Now, we can always resume the debate if you think that's not the case (then we can roll up our sleeves and get the debate rolling again). But that's just something to think about.

So that being said, I'll make a few points about your argument.

ASA sorry for late reply im was in classes for last few weeks ok cool.
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1) I still haven't seen any evidence from you that even suggests the Prophet reading and writing words on a page. Where is the daleel showing the Prophet picking up a book and reading or writing something for himself? You still haven't brought any evidence for that.

The evidence that you seek comes down to a matter of interpretation of the word ummi. If Ummi only means cannot read or write then this is clear and cut but it has much more meaning than just cannot read or write. The evidence is that Allah said that he is from an ummi people an unlettered people so if ummi means cannot read or write then how does one explain how all of a sudden the companions were able to write down the Quran when it says that they were an ummi people?
If we take ummi to mean cannot read or write then this meaning also applies to the people of Mecca, but the daleel is in one particular hadith when Ali was writing down what the Prophet was saying. The question comes up that if Allah says that they are ummi and if we say that ummi means cannot read or write then how do we explain Ali writing or any one of the companions writing the Quran down especially when the verse was revealed that they are an ummi people. How can a person who is of people who are labeled as cannot read or write (ummi) turn around and write the very same verse that’s talking about them saying that they cannot read or write. Now once we attribute another meaning for ummi then it makes sense so why cant that same other meaning apply to the Prophet. Just an interesting thought to think about.

2) You said: So here we have Allah saying READ even the word Quran means that which is to be Read or that which is read, Surah 16 ‘’When you Read the Quran seek Allahs protection” clearly this is showing that Allah is establishing an education system of reading,(correct reading) So if we even look at Iqra this is a much deeper command,calling one to read. Lets try this..everybody close your eyes and reflect on the name Allah… what do you see??

That’s reading!!

C'mon ak, your assuming that visualizing letters in your mind is a "deep" meaning of read... The Prophet was not concerned about the letters on a page, he was concerned about the meanings of what language represents. So it doesn't matter whether or not you can visualize and be all caught up in the letters A L L A H, what matters is your state of being and your relationship with your Creator, not with letters you memorized.

Based on what you said, a person must be able to visualize the letters A L L A H in their mind in order to really understand his/her Creator. I think you missed the mark on that bro.


(smiles) Well bro the mark is not missed rather I think your misunderstanding what im saying. If you reflect on the name Allah then what you see is called reading. If all one sees is just letters then their reading is far off. So I agree with what your saying not to be caught up with the letters. However like I said close your eyes and think about Allah whatever you ponder about then that is reading. Now with that said the Prophet Muhammad before he received revelation was not reading correctly, Allah says to him “I found you straying and guided you aright”. His heart and his state of being was in line with what Allah wants the human being to be but his reading was a little off(ummi) And Allah educated Him on the correct reading on Him and from that education that was given to him we now as muslims when we ponder on Allah we can read the signs of Allah. So the reading and writing of the Prophet is much much bigger than talking about the actual physical reading and writing of letters. And if the word Ummi takes on that understanding then even when talk about the physical reading and writing should be examined.




3) You said: Language is symbols all throughout time Prophets and mankind relate by symbols. What were (t)he symbols in the Prophets time for expressing Arabic language?

Arabic was an oral tradition. This is why the Arabs didn't have libraries like Rome and Persia; because they retained information through memory and eye witness accounts. This is proven time and time again throughout the life of the Prophet.

Yes but language is symbols that’s why Allah said it is He that taught men the use of the pen. Is the Prophet exempt from this teaching? Yes Arabic was oral and it was also written down as well. But I agree that it was mainly oral tradition but that change back into a written tradition came through the Prophet


4) You said: How is it or rather how can the Prophet tell us to do something that he himself cant do? He tells captives to teach people how to read he tells us to read and the whole time he cannot read?? What is a person called who tells you to do something that they themselves donot do??

Now lets take a look at this ayat….
Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:44 Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?

If we say that the Prophet never knew how to read then this ayat can be attributed to the Prophet. How can the Prophet enjoin the right conduct of education of learning how to read and write on the community and forget practiced it himself??

You made a number of assumptions about this ayat that are not there.

According to your logic: READING WORDS ON PAGE = RIGHTEOUSNESS. Since reading words on a page is righteousness, the Prophet had to have read words on a page.

According to your logic: READING WORDS ON A PAGE = RIGHTEOUSNESS. Since reading words on a page is righteousness, the Prophet had to have read and written, since he commanded righteousness.

You first mistake is that you think righteousness is reading, when in reality reading is just one means to know what righteousness is. This is why a person who reads books all day is not inherently righteous. Allah has already defined what He means when He says "righteousness" when He said,
I don't see "read words on a page" listed here.

So when Allah says, "Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people" He is not speaking about reading words on a page, rather He is speaking about good actions, like prayer, patience, charity, and so forth. Reading and writing are just tools that can be used for anything. And the Prophet didn't need to use those tools himself. Allah knows best.

Yes and to enjoin right conduct on a people is speaking of education as well, I cant take my child aside and tell him to study his 3 times tables and to know it and that it will benefit him all the while I don’t even know my tables. Education is a means of right conduct to know righteousness you have to be taught what righteousness is, this goes for prayer, patience, charity, and so on. Reading words on a page is good actions and teaching one to read is good actions. Why would I teach somebody prayer and I don’t pray myself, why would I teach fasting and I don’t fast, teach marriage and I fornicate, education and I don’t seek it, why would anybody enjoin right conduct on people and don’t practice it themselves? I mean come on that should really be thought on. Yes Reading and writing are just tools that can be used for anything but the Prophet was enjoining those tools on the people to build an educated society a thinking society. The Prophet is the best example for the whole world so ANY right conduct that he enjoins on the people its safe to say that he practiced it himself.

4
This is pretty straight forward: In the first aya, Allah was speaking about the Prophet specifically, and in the second aya Allah spoke about the people in general.

Let me ask a question: Is America a literate nation? The answer is yes, and not because every single person in America can read and write, but rather because most people in America read and write, and our society is built upon literacy and the written word. This is why we have libraries and archives at the backbone of our civilizaiton.

Now when Allah says that the Prophet came from an illiterate nation, this doesn't necessarily mean that none of the Arabs could read or write, it just meant that most of them couldn't, and that their society did not rely on literacy in order to function properly. So there were people among them who read and wrote words, but this doesn't contradict the fact that they lived in an illiterate society, in the same way that having some illiterate people in America does not mean that America is an illiterate nation. This is why we find some Companions who could read and right during the Prophets time although they lived in an illiterate society.

Thank you, I agree so to derive that meaning of ummi why do we stop at saying that He couldn’t read or write physically?


Now, in the Prophet's case, Allah wanted to be very clear, so He used unambiguous terms and said "the illiterate (or unlettered) Prophet". And this was good because there would probably be people in the future who would say, "Allah said that his people were unlettered, but that doesn't mean that he Prophet himself was unlettered!" Dispelling this false conclusion, Allah spoke about the Prophet specifically to leave no doubt in this issue.

Right and Allah used the same term Ummi to describe the people and to describe the Prophet. And like you said if ummi doesent mean that all the arabs couldn’t read or write this ummi is also speaking to something else




In this aya, Allah isn't defining what illiteracy is, rather He is describing the result of illiteracy in the case of the People of the Book.

Since the Jews relied on the written word to know what is in the Torah, those who were not literate solely depended on those who were literate among them in order to learn the Torah. This is why their knowledge of the scripture was only wishes (amani) and assumptions (uzhunnoon). Since they couldn't read, and since the Torah did not have an oral tradition, the people were left to make baseless assumptions. Christians still have this problem today... They don't have access to the original text, and no one has memorized it, so they rely on translations and written documents in order to make their assumptions about Jesus and God. Since most people 1) don't read Hebrew (or Aramaic) 2) don't memorize their books and 3) don't understand the books language and 4) Aramaic is a dead language anyway, they are then left to assumptions and wishes that are not even mentioned in the original books literally or metaphorically.

Yes I agree again with you, so their reading is off. The make up things assume things. But does one need a physical book to actually read what God wants him to be?If you are guided then your inspiration is guided by Allah there for your reading takes place on a different level.

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