Did Prophet Muhammad hear Allah's voice when he produced the Qur'an?

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 8, 2009 at 3:45am

There are a lot of different arguments being sent back and forth... Our comments seem to be getting bigger and bigger. So let me try to concentrate the debate on the main points.

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You are basically saying:
1) The Prophet had to know how to read and write because it was generally important for him as the example for mankind.
2) You're saying that the first command "Read!" was understood by the Prophet as "Read (the likes of Torah and Injeel)", and this is why he replied "I cannot read"
3) Somehow, not being able to read and write is a "deficiency" for a Prophet.

I'm sure you have other points as well, but these are the main points of your argument... Am I correct?

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Permalink Reply by Nash on September 8, 2009 at 11:08am

I had a feeling that you would turn everything into metaphors... lol

lol. Not just metaphors but some deeper thinking into these subjects and I know it’s much more thinking to be done on them.

I wasn't saying that Jews and Christians weren't Arabs. I am saying that for Jews and Christians, education was based on literacy, while Quraish and other tribes where not educated based on literacy. This is why the Quraish did not use literacy as a means to teach their people how to function in society.

The Jews and Christians at that time relied on memory as well they had hafiz of the torah and injeel as well. The Quraish done a lot of their education by the word of mouth tradition I agree with you but they could also read. They spoke Arabic and they could also read Arabic they done business by contract and having scribes this was a customary way of doing business amongst them. They followed suit with other tribes they wrote out contracts and treaties. The Prophet Grew up amongst them and was the excellent business man, if their custom was to write out contracts and treaties then when it came to business for Kahdijah (may Allah bless her) with foreign merchants the shear survival of a business man relied on not only memory but on contracts. In order to be a successful business man you had to make contracts and treaties. And if reading and writing were not practiced by the Quraish as a means for economic survival then the only people they would trade with orally or have treaties with orally is themselves.

Because all others signed contracts and treaties by writing. Now when it comes to Muhammad he took caravans to different cities and traded and made contracts but it’s obvious that Muhammad did not take a whole caravan of stuff by his self, he had people who worked under him but Muhammad was in charge like a manager of the caravans yet we don’t say “no Muhammad took all those camels and the whole caravans and property of Kahdijah by his self. Because there is no real proof that others went with him on those trades. He was in charge of her business and he brought her great wealth and to survive as a good business man you had to know how to do a contract or read what a contract entailed. Written contracts was their way of life as well and that way spilled over when Muhammad became head of state.

Reading and writing your own language is all about recognizing the letters and saying them. The reason why you can't understand the Quran when you read it in Arabic is because you don't understand Arabic language, not because you can't read.

Thank you this is what I’m saying


On the other hand, if I gave you a book in English and you read it you would understand it at some level. People have different levels of understanding when reading their own language, but they are still understanding nonetheless.
Yes and if you give me Shakespeare or some other perverted poet I would read it and say I cannot read this meaning that I do not understand it at all.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that the Prophet said he could read, nor is there any evidence showing the Prophet writing anything. If it was so important for the Prophet to read and write, why can't we find one hadith informing us of this without using metaphorical acrobatics?

No I’m not saying that it was paramount that he was reading and writing I’m saying that if he didn’t know how to read or write letters or the basic Arabic language then the Quraish especially his uncle and all others who knew him well would say how he arrived at such great wisdom. They would be the first to say he cannot read or write they knew that great wisdom was recorded in books especially scriptural wisdom. The high ups knew what idols represented yet the masses believed in them. The high ups were educated and they were a secret order amongst themselves and Muhammad was not amongst that order.

So the question was not hey how does he know how to read all of a sudden, no it was how does he have insight into scripture when he was known to never be a part of that order. He didn’t know this and he was known for not knowing this. Now if the Quraish were purely a tribe that was known for not knowing how to read or write then the mentioning of reading and writing would have sent shock waves through Mecca. But why Does Allah say unlettered if the Prophet never knew how to read or write then he would just recite what was said to him. Mentioning that he cannot read or write makes no sense if he is reciting words to a people whose custom is not reading and writing. They won’t ask where did you get these written words from instead they ask where did you hear this from?

Yet Allah tells them that he is unlettered, meaning that you lot know that he does not and never knew any scripture never recited any scripture never wrote any scripture so now when he comes with scripture reciting it you ask where did he get this from and he says Allah.

Hmmm. What makes you think that "Read" must mean "read the bible?" or "read the Torah"? I see nothing that indicates this. This is a stretch at best. If this was consistent with your argument (that the Prophet could read) then the Prophet would have answered saying, "What should I read?" as opposed to, "I cannot read." Allah knows best.

Because the Prophet is sent to address that which is holding mankind back from reaching their full human potential. Jesus was sent to fulfill and address the mistakes that they made by misreading the Torah Musa was sent to address the mistake that the Pharaoh made by misreading God, and Muhammad was sent as a mercy to all the worlds. So this is all systems of knowledge, so the Quran is addressing the religious orders that is being set up for greed and tyranny and racism so the reading that’s being asked is the reading of the scripture. What is the readings that paramount in the world for leading mankind astray??

The Torah and Injeel. If I give you a book and say Read and you say I cannot read then you are in essence saying what should I read. If I can’t read then what should I read if your showing me a book saying read I’m going to continue telling you I can’t read. Remember the Prophet is having a spiritual awakening here, READ!! I cannot read, Here he is searching for answers pouring his heart out this is taking place on a high level of understanding. Where did he go after that encounter?? To Kahdijah uncle or was it her cousin? Who was well versed in the Bible? That should really be thought on, the Bible is the combined book of Torah and Injeel but it has been corrupted but its two readings. And scripture also has two readings Basic and allegorical both of which the Prophet was not aware of till revelation came to him.

Yeah, I see what you’re saying, but the Quran said "any book", not "holy book" or "scripture". Again, I can see how you can come to your conclusion, but only if you start off by assuming that the aya is only speaking of holy scripture, as opposed to "all books".

"You (O Prophet,) have never been reciting any book before this, nor have you been writing it with your right hand; had it been so, the adherents of falsehood would have raised doubts."

Yes and what books is Allah addressing, obviously He’s not addressing their contracts or treaties that they’ve written, or simple recorded poetry. What has led men away from guidance?? What books have led men away from guidance? What books are held by secret orders and used to manipulate the masses when those in high position know the truth? How is the right hand used throughout the Quran, it’s in a position of control it’s in a position power. The reason why Mecca was entrenched in idol worship is because of the writing of scripture by those who sought power over people; they used their position of authority and introduced idol worship into the society.

Muhammad (pbuh) had no role in doing this. And any book is referring to their scriptures how could a book be considered holy if the words of God has been tampered with? Its scripture yes but it has been tampered with and Muhammad is given THE BOOK that is free and protected from being tampered with. Look at that Allah calls the Quran a book not just a recitation “This is THE BOOK in it is no doubt” And what do you do with a book?? You read it the Prophet is reading this is some high education man that Allah is giving his Messenger.

Sure, on a spiritual level rivers do represent life paths represent guidance...

However, here the Quran is speaking on a practical level as well. To the Arabs, Allah is speaking about the reality of how they used to travel. Are you saying that the Arabs relied on road signs like "Mecca: 20 miles" rather than the stars and natural landmarks. C'mon ak, all the evidence we have contradicts that.

Of course not man lol, they did read though, the banking system of writing checks gets its origin from how Islam practiced business. Take away Islam you take away how to manage money properly, that’s why there’s so much usury today. They did write and sign contracts and treaties, but no I know that they did not rely on road signs but they read the stars and they knew about poles north ,east,south,west, they also were able to read.


I had a feeling that you would say that... Ok. Let's take a clearer hadith that is more direct.

Allah says, "So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Unlettered Prophet (ummi), who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led a right." [7:158
(Ummi) has only one meaning in Arabic: a person who cannot read or write. That is how the Prophet used the word, and that is how all Arabs used the word.

Ummi shares the same root as Ummah community right? Here in the clearer hadith (which I love best) an Ummi Prophet from an Ummi people. Unlettered or unadulterated he did not have ANY affiliations with any ones scriptures this man right here is PURE. He’s not confounded by your nonsense nor is he wrapped up or trained in your secret order. Your religious books and your high ups he’s not amongst your circle. Even though his uncle was He Muhammad is not. Let’s look at a baby that is born to parents that uses the f word constantly, that baby is innocent and pure and unlettered in their vain talk. And if that baby is taken out of that environment and given to right minded speech then it’s not guilty of being an F word user or a vain talker. That baby would grow up unlettered of that type of talk.

But let that same baby grow up in the vain talking house and understand what that word means and then it starts using that word and as an adult it uses that word then that person is lettered in speaking vain. But take that baby out of the environment and place it in a pleasant talking environment by the time it comes into an adult it is unlettered of any corruption type of talk any vain talk. Muhammad was a baby just like this, he grew up amongst the Meccans not joining them in their religious habits he was Pure and innocent free from the corrupted thinking within the Torah and Injeel that was corrupted by man. He was unlettered in that knowledge. An Ummi Prophet representing an Ummah of people who were unlettered in that as well, but Muhammad was the perfect example for that Ummah to receive the correct message for the global Ummah. Abu Baker was ummi he didn’t worship idols he was unlettered in that scripture as well.


It's possible for him to memorize symbols... Look, I'm not saying that he didn't have the ability to learn to read. What I'm saying is that he didn't have a need to know how to read and write in the first place. If Allah wants him to read and write, then it would have happened and we would have plenty of Hadith showing the Prophet read and writing, but the Prophet himself says that he doesn't read or write, and that's because he doesn't need to learn or teach through that medium.

Yes brother he told them to seek education he told captives to teach reading and writing, he must have seen the importance in reading and writing in order for him to set free a captive of war who taught reading and writing. He was taught by Allah and he teaches through Allah I agree with you on that and Allah says that it is He that taught the use of the PEN, and the Prophet giving these words to the community shows that Allah teaches writing as a form of education. Writing is a form of Islamic education now and back then.


No brother, I think your looking at it from the wrong angle. Instead of asking, "why did the Prophet allow captives to teach the people," the real question would be, "Why didn't the Prophet himself teach the people how to read and write, just as he taught them how to recite?" The answer is obvious: because he didn't read and write, and because that was not essential for him to be a Prophet. He did not have to be "literally educated", nor did he need the means of conventional education to teach the Quran.

Yes why didn’t he teach people how to read and write?? Simple because He was the head of state!! Remember he’s structuring an Islamic republic; he has also surrounded his self with qualified people to carry out tasks. He didn’t need to go on every fight he set out delegates for certain wars. He didn’t sit around and recite constantly to his companions he gave the message and they practiced it and wrote it down. He trusted these men and if they had a problem they asked but he was the head of state and as the head of state he knew that reading and writing or education was paramount for this community to survive. Allah refers to the Quran as The Book well he knew that he had to have an educated community in order to preserve this Book. Oral was not enough he knew that this was a Book not an oral translation to be passed down. Oral gets messed up along the way but a book and oral shoot no way can that get lost.


if you think that not reading and writing is a defect of Prophet Hood, then I can see why you're saying what you're saying. I just don't think it is a defect. It's not about how you learn, it's about what you know. And since Quran and sunna clearly indicates that he didn't read or write, I think it is safe to conclude - as virtually all the scholars concluded - that there was no need for him to learn to read or write, since Allah took charge of his education.

Allah knows best.

No defect at the entire Prophet was perfect. Those same scholars brother are not 100% sure that he didn’t know how to read or write. Again the same thing that has happened to the Christian world has crept in on the Islamic world. People have put themselves up on high and they keep the so called goodies for themselves. They have set up secret orders but they would rather we don’t think and just follow what they interpret for us. Not all but a good bit. When I speak of reading and writing I’m speaking of reading and writing of scripture like I said some people look for things to signify a miracle and by saying that he couldn’t read and therefore he produced this Book is a big miracle is false in my opinion. Muhammad is sent to address the world this is the last Prophet he is given a message to lead humanity into correct human life. And the books that came before were corrupted and destroyed that life.

And also I don’t negate that he also couldn’t read or write in that sense however I see this reading and writing on a much bigger picture a much bigger scale, talking about religion and the survival of it. How many billionaires have never finished high school yet their successful the fact that they had poor grades is no reflection on the huge accomplishment in their lives. Thus Muhammad reading and writing as the Quran gives it is not on a low level of thinking this is talking to the religious worlds.

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Permalink Reply by Nash on September 8, 2009 at 11:09am

There are a lot of different arguments being sent back and forth... Our comments seem to be getting bigger and bigger. So let me try to concentrate the debate on the main points.

Im enjoying the lectures and i am enjoying the reading as well i know they seem to be getting bigger right, but i am enjoying it
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You are basically saying:
1) The Prophet had to know how to read and write because it was generally important for him as the example for mankind.

No

2) You're saying that the first command "Read!" was understood by the Prophet as "Read (the likes of Torah and Injeel)", and this is why he replied "I cannot read"

Yes,and also scripture has basic and allegorical meanings this is two as well he didnt know these either.

3) Somehow, not being able to read and write is a "deficiency" for a Prophet.

no this is not what im saying

I'm sure you have other points as well, but these are the main points of your argument... Am I correct?
Number 2 is sort of spot on the rest No, thats not what im saying

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 10, 2009 at 11:30am

Wow, that's a long comment! It must have taken a whole day to type that man. lol Alhamdulillah

Here's the thing bro. There are three main ways to prove that the Prophet was illiterate, but you don't seem to accept the literal meaning of the proof. Here are the three main ways:

1) A statement, or statements, from Allah and his Messenger stating the Prophets illiteracy.
2) The fact that throughout all of the events of his life, he always had someone else read to him and write for him.
3) There is no account of the Prophet actually reading and writing. No statements made by the Sahaba or otherwise.

Now, for the first proof, I'm convinced that no matter what statements I bring from Quran and Hadith stating the illiteracy of the Prophet, you will always interpret that as "lack of understanding scripture".

I disagree with this because the word (ummi) in Arabic has never been used for literate people. You have redifined how the word was originally used. So if we don't agree on definitions then we can't really get further on this point.

For the second proof: no matter what hadith I give you about the Prophet delegating others to write and read to him, in every single account, whether political, scriptural, business, or social, I'm convinced that you will say that he didn't read or write because he was "head of state".

This goes against the nature of Prophethood. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, carried his own firewood, swept his own floors, sewed his own clothes, fought his own fights, taught his own people, and so on. The Prophet did anything that he was able to do himself. Reading and writing was not something he learned, nor was he supposed to learn it, so he had someone else do it for him.


For the last proof, you can't bring actual hadith about the Prophet writing or reading, but you will bring "circumstantial evidence", meaning that the circumstances (being a successful businessman) indicate that he did read and write.

But I disagree with your conclusion for a number of reasons.
1) The Arabs relied more on verbal agreements and witnesses than on peices of paper. You will find this throughout the Sirah. The Quraish constantly relied on witnesses, verbal commitments, and common customs as official law. This is why Islamic Law still considers verbal agreements and witnesses as the basis for all contracts, while written agreements is always secondary and usually more as a matter of formality. Marriage is a clear example. Although we usually write out contracts, a verbal agreement with witnesses is what makes the marriage binding and is the basis for legalization.

2) There are plenty of successful Illiterate merchants in our history. Even West Indian Richie - in the autobiography of Malcolm X - is a good example. He never wrote anything down.
It just so happens that I have been reading the autobiography of Neslon Mandela, and he said that his father, among a number of leaders in his tribe, was a very wealthy man who had high positions in the british and African governments; and he didn't know how to read and write in any language. This was common in South Africa.
There are plenty of other examples we can find, but I think you get the point.

3) Merchants can easily hire writers to draft papers for them if need be. This was well known and documented even among wealthy literate nations like the Romans. Surely you can conclude that Prophet would have delegated people to write for him before he was a Prophet just as he did after he became a Prophet.


I'm tired, so I'll stop here. lol But I think this has been a fruitful discussion so far. Allah knows best.

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Permalink Reply by sofia parveen on September 10, 2009 at 2:13pm

The Quran is for all levels,for even simple minded people like me,i do not believe Allah would have given the messages to our prophet if it didn't reach those who are not that educational, there are spiritual meanings and metorphors,that only few have insight to[which i believe Nash you do possess]but one has to be careful sometimes to see the simple side of things,every sentence does not necessarily have to be decoded,otherwise everyone would have their own version of the Quran. As for simple bodied me i believe our prophet could not read for the purposes brother Hamza has mentioned,but i learnt alot from both you brothers. JazakAllah, :-))

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Permalink Reply by Omar Muhammad on September 10, 2009 at 2:46pm

You mentioned symbols "It's possible for him to memorize symbols..." all reading is, is memorizing symbols and their meaning so technically this would be an act of reading.

And then there is this Hadith from Sahih Muslim, but I'm not certain if there is not another meaning behind "write it down"

[Book 007, Number 3142:
Abu Huraira, (Allah be pleased with him) reported. When Allah, the Exalted and Majestic, granted Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) victory over Mecca, he stood before people and praised and extolled Allah and then said: Verily Allah held back the elephants from Mecca and gave the domination of it to His Messenger and believers, and it (this territory) was not violable to anyone before me and it was made violable to me for an hour of a day, and it shall not be violable to anyone after me. So neither molest the game, nor weed out thorns from it. And it is not lawful for anyone to pick up a thing dropped but one who makes public announcement of it. And it a relative of anyone is killed he is entitled to opt for one of two things. Either he should be paid blood-money or he can take life as (a just retribution). 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) said: Allah's Messenger, but Idhkhir (a kind of herbage), for we use it for our graves and for our houses, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: With the exception of Idhkhir. A person known as Abu Shah, one of the people of Yemen, stood up and said: Messenger of Allah, (kindly) write it for me. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said I Write it for Abu Shah. Walid said: I asked al-Auzai': What did his saying mean:" Write it for me, Messenger of Allah"? He said: This very address that he had heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him).]

Hamzah said:

I had a feeling that you would turn everything into metaphors... lol

Oh no I totally understand the difference of our modern culture and the premodern Arab culture.
I understand that memory was vital back then and that not too much of things were put into book form. But there was writing and reading back then. There was written language, reading and writing was not just connected to Jewish and Christian education the Arabs were comprised of Jews and Christians as well.

I wasn't saying that Jews and Christians weren't Arabs. I am saying that for Jews and Christians, education was based on literacy, while Quraish and other tribes where not educated based on literacy. This is why the Quraish did not use literacy as a means to teach their people how to function in society.

So the Jews and Christians were Arab people as well reading and writing that I’m speaking of is the understanding of the Torah and Injeel. To read the scriptures is not reading if you don’t understand what you’re reading right? The same is with the Quran I can read and recite Arabic all day but if I don’t understand what I’m reading then I’m not reading the Quran. Reading is about understanding it’s not just about looking at letters and pronouncing them its understanding what you are reading. And in that the Prophet was unlettered he knew no scripture it doesn’t mean that he couldn’t read it but it also mean that there was no understanding when it came to that Book.

Reading and writing your own language is all about recognizing the letters and saying them. The reason why you can't understand the Quran when you read it in Arabic is because you don't understand Arabic language, not because you can't read.

On the other hand, if I gave you a book in english and you read it you would understand it at some level. People have different levels of understanding when reading their own language, but they are still understanding nonetheless.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that the Prophet said he could read, nor is there any evidence showing the Prophet writing anything. If it was so important for the Prophet to read and write, why can't we find one hadith informing us of this without using metaphorical acrobatics?

That’s why he was squeezed twice IQRA This is saying read or recite pointing to the Torah, the next squeeze is the Injeel, if he had any knowledge or understood what was in those books he would have answered but he said I cannot then came the Read in the Name of your Lord ……… Now his eyes is opened now he understands now he has insight into scripture now Allah is teaching him. The correct use of the pen.

Hmmm. What makes you think that "Read" must mean "read the bible?" or "read the Torah"? I see nothing that indicates this. This is a stretch at best. If this was consistent with your argument (that the Prophet could read) then the Prophet would have answered saying, "What should I read?" as opposed to, "I cannot read." Allah knows best.

"You (O Prophet,) have never been reciting any book before this, nor have you been writing it with your right hand; had it been so, the adherents of falsehood would have raised doubts."

Yes and what is the right hand? Had Muhammad had full knowledge of the Torah or Injeel and understanding then he would most definitely been charged with stealing verses or trying to invent something out something old. But what cleared him was not the notion that he couldn’t read or write no what cleared him was the Fact that he grew up amongst these people and they knew him and they knew that he did not know any scripture he never recited any scripture to them he was considered a nice guy but he sure as heck did not know any scripture. So this ayat is proof that had he understood the scripture and was reciting or reading this they would have surly raised doubts. This is not talking about regular books were talking about the establishment of a great community being formed. And Muhammad reciting regular books would not raise any doubts.
But the reciting is the reciting of scripture books and the writing with the right hand is a man in position of scriptural power. These people were guilty of changing the words of scripture from their right places And had Muhammad been in a scholarly position amongst them then he would be accused of changing and doing this. The right hand if we are given our book in our right hand what happens to us? So this ayat brother is showing that neither was Muhammad a Hafiz any of those books nor was did he transcribe one.(King James version?? I know its waaaaaaaaay after him but you understand what I’m saying?)

Yeah, I see what your saying, but the Quran said "any book", not "holy book" or "scripture". Again, I can see how you can come to your conclusion, but only if you start off by assuming that the aya is only speaking of holy scripture, as opposed to "all books".

"And rivers and paths, so that you might find your way, as well as [various other] means of orientation: for [it is] by the stars that men find their way."

Rivers are a representation of spiritual life and paths is balanced guidance and the stars are the leaders in community life.( example we all look up to our Imams and to the companions and to Muhammad(pbuh) in order to get guidance)
I know that they didn’t rely on road signs to navigate through the dessert however they did have signs and they did have words posted up and they did do business by writing things down, and Muhammad was a good business man. You mean to say that all of his transactions for Kadijah and not one of them were of written documentation when this was a habit practiced amongst them?

Sure, on a spiritual level rivers do represent life paths represent guidance...

However, here the Quran is speaking on a practical level as well. To the Arabs, Allah is speaking about the reality of how they used to travel. Are you saying that the Arabs relied on road signs like "Mecca: 20 miles" rather than the stars and natural landmarks. C'mon ak, all the evidence we have contradicts that.

The treaty of Hudaibiya…..man I hate typing curse you Hamzah lol hhaha….ok
When the Muslims were poised to take up arms and attack Makkah, Othman returned to the Muslim camp with Suhail b Amr, an eminent citizen of Makkah, whom the Quraish sent to negotiate a treaty with the Muslims. Suhail was notorious for his hostility to Islam. He was one of the principal persecutors when the Holy Prophet declared his mission. He had fought in the Battle of Badr and had been taken captive. He was later ransomed. After a lengthy discussion, the Holy Prophet and Suhail came to terms and agreed to execute a treaty. Ali was commissioned to draft the treaty. The Holy Prophet dictated that it was a treaty between Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah, and the Quraish. Suhail objected to the preamble on the ground that the Quraish did not acknowledge him as the prophet of God and as such the reference to his prophethood should be omitted. Ali did not agree to omit the relevant words. Thereupon the Holy Prophet omitted these words himself.
See what we have here is Muhammad (pbuh) acting as the head of state dictating to his scribe what to write down (the same thing is done today). Now the scribe being a good Islamic scribe saw what Suhail said as an insult and would not erase what he wrote the hadith that you quoted shows the actions of a head of state speaking to his scribe about the words he had him write down. Now imagine im your scribe and I’m writing a lecture from you that you are reciting to me and in it you say Hamzah the great says… (a little bit of self worship slips in lol) now when I finished you look at me and say oh no I can’t say Hamzah the great erase that and I say no I think you can say it and you say pass me the lecture ok were is it where did I say Hamaza the great, and I say here and there. This doesn’t prove that you can’t read.

I had a feeling that you would say that... Ok. Let's take a more clear hadith that is more direct.

Allah says, "So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Unlettered Prophet (ummi), who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright." [7:158]

(Ummi) has only one meaning in Arabic: a person who cannot read or write. That is how the Prophet used the word, and that is how all arabs used the word.

Yes and about the seal of the letters that’s what I’m talking about he has a ring that says Messenger of God and he can’t read it?? He can’t memorize those letters and read it?? Hard for me to swallow that.

It's possible for him to memorize symbols... Look, I'm not saying that he didn't have the ability to learn to read. What I'm saying is that he didn't have a need to know how to read and write in the first place. If Allah wants him to read and write, then it would have happened and we would have plenty of Hadith showing the Prophet read and writing, but the Prophet himself says that he doesn't read or write, and that's because he doesn't need to learn or teach through that medium.

If reading and writing were not a primary medium in the east then why the Prophet when concerning the captives whose families could not afford the ransom, he released them on condition that each of them would do a service, within his capability, for the Muslim community, such as teaching ten Muslim children how to read and write. So if this education was important of reading and writing so much so that a captive of war was set free once he taught people how to read and write, I don’t understand how it’s said that Muhammad couldn’t read or write. Why teach them how to read why not teach them your way if we are to follow Muhammad then we should not read either?? Do as I say and not as I do? No the prophet (Pbuh) was our best example. I believe when looking at reading and writing of the prophet (pbuh) we need really look at him not reading and writing scripture...

No brother, I think your looking at it from the wrong angle. Instead of asking, "why did the Prophet allow captives to teach the people," the real question would be, "Why didn't the Prophet himself teach the people how to read and write, just as he taught them how to recite?" The answer is obvious: because he didn't read and write, and because that was not essential for him to be a Prophet. He did not have to be "literally educated", nor did he need the means of conventional education to teach the Quran.

If you think that not reading and writing is a defect of Prophethood, then I can see why you're saying what you're saying. I just don't think it is a defect. It's not about how you learn, it's about what you know. And since Quran and sunna clearly indicates that he didn't read or write, I think it is safe to conclude - as virtually all the scholars concluded - that there was no need for him to learn to read or write, since Allah took charge of his education.

Allah knows best.

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 10, 2009 at 3:28pm

If you finish my quote you will see that I said, "it's possible for him to memorize symbols... Look, I'm not saying that he didn't have the ability to learn to read. What I'm saying is that he didn't have a need to know how to read and write in the first place."

So all I was saying was that, in principle, it is not impossible. Anything is possible if you don't have clear evidence...

My point is the evidence does not support the claim. You see the difference here?

Anyway, now that you mentioned this hadith I will check it and get back with you inshallah. Thanks for sharing that information.

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 10, 2009 at 5:13pm

Subhanallah, I just read the hadith in Arabic... Whoever translated this Hadith translated it wrong.

Abu Shah didn't ask the Prophet to write, he asked the Prophet to command the people to write for him.

Let me explain: Abu Shah said, (Uktuboo) with a letter (wow) at the end. This means that he was asking a group of people, not one person. Anyone who understands basic Arabic grammar should understand what I mean.

This is why the Prophet answered: "Write it for him." (uktuboo li Abi Shaah) NOT: I write it. (Aktubu)

If you read the Arabic, you will find there is no doubt that Abu Shah is telling the Prophet to command the people to write his speech for him, and that the Prophet responded by commanding the people to write it.

So, in essence, this further proves my point that the Prophet did not write.

Whoever translated that Hadith made a grave mistranslation. If you present this Hadith to anyone who knows Arabic you will find that what I am saying is true. I would not lie to you about hadith.

It is also important that we don't take our knowledge - especially hadith and translations - from unknown sources of the internet. I'm not saying you did that brother, but just in case you did, I just want to give you some sincere brotherly advice about that. You don't know who is putting information out there, so this is something to be careful about.

Allah knows best

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Permalink Reply by Omar Muhammad on September 10, 2009 at 5:32pm

Thanks for the clarification.

Here is the source I used if you or anyone else was interested, they give the translator's name also.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/...


Hamzah said:

Subhanallah, I just read the hadith in Arabic... Whoever translated this Hadith translated it wrong.

Abu Shah didn't ask the Prophet to write, he asked the Prophet to command the people to write for him.

Let me explain: Abu Shah said, (Uktuboo) with a letter (wow) at the end. This means that he was asking a group of people, not one person. Anyone who understands basic Arabic grammar should understand what I mean.

This is why the Prophet answered: "Write it for him." (uktuboo li Abi Shaah) NOT: I write it. (Aktubu)

If you read the Arabic, you will find there is no doubt that Abu Shah is telling the Prophet to command the people to write his speech for him, and that the Prophet responded by commanding the people to write it.

So, in essence, this further proves my point that the Prophet did not write.

Whoever translated that Hadith made a grave mistranslation. If you present this Hadith to anyone who knows Arabic you will find that what I am saying is true. I would not lie to you about hadith.

It is also important that we don't take our knowledge - especially hadith and translations - from unknown sources of the internet. I'm not saying you did that brother, but just in case you did, I just want to give you some sincere brotherly advice about that. You don't know who is putting information out there, so this is something to be careful about.

Allah knows best

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Permalink Reply by Nuriddeen on September 10, 2009 at 7:02pm

As far as I know from hadith Angel Gabriel revealed the Quran to our beloved Prophet Muhammed, in fact in this month of Ramadan is when Angel Gabriel would come to the Prophet and recite the entire Quran to Muhammed. Whe our beloved (PBUH) would receive Quran and recite it to others they would memorize it -I've heard the Arabs had very good memories, some memorized the whole Quran others memorized parts. Our beloved (PBUH) was and illeterate man so he did not write the Quran others among his (the few Arabs who knew how to write) would write parts of it. After his death the Muslims decided to get the copies of the Quran from different people compiled in to the one Quran.
You do though raise a good question as to whether Allah's messenger every heard the voice of allah I would have to do some more searching to find this answer. But we have to know that our holy book the noble Quran is from Allah alone. The messenger had no input or collaboration with Allah these are Allah (SWT) words alone. In fact when you read the Quran you will see many tell that Allah starts a verse with 'Qul' meaning say speaking to the Prophet and ordering him to say for example 'Say: "My Rabb does not care if you invoke Him or not. Now that you have rejected his revelation, soon will you face the evitable punishment" -25:[61-77]. The Quran is Allah book revealed to the Messenger as a mercy to mankind.
This is from my readings and what other Muslims have told me, and Allah knows best!
But please don't just accept the replies on here, read a biography of the prophet and read Sahih Bukhari, read the Quran -there you will find the best answers

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Permalink Reply by Abu Sufyan on September 10, 2009 at 11:44pm

Wow, all this from such a simple question :) Or is it that simple? To be brief, I do not believe the prophet (s) wrote the Quran according to various reports. Angel Jibril said the words which came direct from Allah, but there is one thing we are missing from this is that the Hikmah (wisdom, guidance, depth of meaning, between the lines awareness), that did directly come from Allah.

Has the prophet heard Allah's voice? Sure he has. There are Hadith called hadith Qudsi which are direct quotations from Allah. As for direct words of Allah in Quran, the last 2 verses of Suratul Baqarah were said directly to the Prophet (s) from Allah during Israa wa Miraj.

I appreciate Hamza's nuanced knowledge of arabic, so lets take it further. What does Iqra mean in the Quran? Like the form of the verbal command, the context? Do we know what the major Mufaseeroon (Interpreters of Quran )say it meant? Yusuf Ali gives a clue in his translation saying that the word Iqra! is... Proclaim! Proclaiming and reading are different.

Maybe he wasnt saying he could not read, and yet perhaps he still could have been illiterate. Unlettered and illiterate? Are they different? Perhaps, just perhaps, the Prophet was saying he couldn't tell mankind what Allah wanted him to say. If we look at the pattern of the 5 Great prophets (Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, & Muhammad) peace on all them, the difficulties that befell them were not mechanical... they were spiritual. Moses didn't speak as well as Aaron, but he didn't tell Allah that, he said I NEED HELP! Abraham (as) said, "I believe, but I just need to see to SECURE my iman"... Perhaps the Prophet (s) in that moment of shock and fear said, "I dont think I can do what you ask!" Look at another surah Muddathir. The angel is telling him GET UP oh covered up one! Allah and the angels would not tell someone and chastise a one legged person for not beating a horse, or a retarded person for not getting high honors academically. I dont know if they were shaking up the Prophet (s) for being illiterate moreso than being afraid. Just my thoughts.

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 12, 2009 at 4:22am

Mashallah! Good to hear from Abu Sufyan. It's been a while since we've shared a discussion.

Allah's voice: Before we affirm or deny whether the Prophet heard Allah's Voice, we should first ask the question: What do we mean by "Allah's Voice"?

Allah is eternal; that is He has no beginning nor an end. All of His attributes are eternal as well. Nothing about Allah is created. His knowledge is not created, His Life is not created, His Power is not created, His Existence is not created, His Will is not created, His Speech is not created. All of His attributes are eternal.

As for us, everything about us is created. This means that everything about us has a beginning. Our knowledge is created for us, our life is created for us, our power is created for us, ours voices are created for us, our will is created for us. Allah has created every moment for us. Everything about us has a beginning.

With all of this in mind, we must ask, what do we mean by "Allah's voice"? Did Allah ever mention His "Voice" in the Quran? Did the Prophet ever mention Allah's "Voice" in hadith?

We know that Allah has "Speech" (kalaam), but the word "voice" means something different. A voice is a sound (Arabic: sawt), and Allah hasn't mentioned anything about voices and sounds to us.

Everything we hear is created. EVERYTHING. Everything that goes into our ears is created, because it is sound. Now, we shouldn't say that the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him, heard Allah's voice, for a couple main reasons.

1) a voice is a sound. Sounds have a beginning, and therefore they are created. So we can't give Allah an attribute that is created.

2) There is no mention of Allah's "voice" in the Quran, nor in hadith (as far as I know). So we can't give Allah an attribute that He and His Messenger have never mentioned.

When the Prophet says, "Allah said" in hadith Qudsi, this doesn't mean that he heard a voice. Allah sends meanings directly to the Prophets heart, and he in turn tells the people what has been "said" to him, so to speak.

Also voices come from a direction, and Allah isn't confined to any place, because all places have been created by him. So He also doesn't have a voice.

This is the quick answer. Allah knows best.

Abu Sufyan, you made an interesting observation about the word (iqra). I'll look into the tafseers to see how many interpretations I can find on it inshallah. There's definitely much more to be discussed on that topic, since that event was so powerful and unique.

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