Did Prophet Muhammad hear Allah's voice when he produced the Qur'an?

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Permalink Reply by Nadiyah on September 3, 2009 at 8:52pm

The Qur'an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (Sullalahu Alayhi Wa Salaam = SAWS) via the Angel Jabril (Gabriel). The words of the Qur'an are the words of Allah (Subhana Wa Ta'Allah = SWT).

We also have hadith Qudsi whose meaning is derived from Allah (SWT) but the words are from Prophet Muhammad (SAWS). Hadith Qudsi is that which Allah (SWT) has communicated to His Prophet (SAWS) through revelation or in dream.

Hope that brief explanation helps. Ramadan Mubarak! :)

Nadiyah

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Permalink Reply by Nadiyah on September 3, 2009 at 9:16pm

Based on the above definitions, the second part of your question, "wasn't it from his own life experiences", fits more closely to the definition of Hadith Qudsi but not Qur'an.

Nadiyah

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Permalink Reply by Murtaza on September 3, 2009 at 11:56pm

Hanifa, The Prophet Muhammad PBUH didnt know how to read and write. He had scribes that wrote down the verses on paper.

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Permalink Reply by Nash on September 4, 2009 at 10:40am

ASA sister this is a topic thats been riding my mind for i dont know how long, ill give you what ive been thinking on tis subject obviously it is an opinion. To your last statement wasn't it from his own life experiences that he learned the truth

Yes and no, yes his life experience was excellent he was of honorable character but he was searching for something what he did not know. Nothing in his life led him to say “Oh now I believe in God and scripture” or “now my eyes are open and this is how I should pray” No he was not led through his life experience to find God he was disturbed with his people and confused with their practices but nothing led him to find God. Rather it was Allah who found him, remember Allah said “I found you straying and guided you aright”


Did he hear Allah's voice?

Allah says sura 42 ayat 51 It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a Messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise

So did he hear Allahs true voice??? This ayat answers that it is clear. True as in inspiration and by Jabril, but Allahs actually voice it is not fitting that Allah would do such a thing, why would Allah need to do that in order for man to be guided by faith. Allah speaking to us by inspiration and by Jibril or behind a veil is good enough for man thus it was good enough for the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and still like the Prophet we have strong faith.

How did Prophet Muhammad write the Quran? I know he spoke, and someone else actually put the ink on the page. But how did Muhammad know what to write?

This is what I’ve been wrestling with for awhile, because if the Prophet was the only one at that time that was worthy enough to receive the message why was he not worthy enough to check or read what the scribes wrote?? Look at Prophet Musa (pbuh) he had an impediment of speech and Aaron was his help who in turn shared the Prophet hood with Musa, although revelation came to Musa Aaron was responsible for delivering the message. But Allah recognized both of them. So how come none of the scribes for Muhammad is recognized as well?

When we see that he couldn’t read or write that’s talking about scripture he was unlettered in scripture. He couldn’t understand scripture im pretty sure that he saw some back then, sheesh all of Mecca had Christians and Jews around and you think that he didn’t see a Bible?? But he was not learned in any scripture and that was what he was also known for he was known that he was not gifted with insight into the Bible he could not understand or read it.

How many muslims are gifted in reading the Bible? Most don’t read it and if those who don’t read it pick it up they will be confused with out correct guidance. Allah reveals to Muhammad that it is HE that has taught the use of the pen. So what Allah teaches and Muhammad doesn’t learn?? The Christians and Jews went astray because of their writing and messing with scripture in the Bible, how could Muhammad recite the Quran to his companions and not have checked it??

Heres another on remember when Ali (mAbph) was reading the Bible and the prophet told him that what he has is better(the Quran) Our Prophet was an illiterate when it came to scripture, look he was a business man ,he counted money, he took messages with caravans he held trusts with people all of these things are done in writing.

This is why Allah through Jabril told Muhammad to read, he didn’t say read a book Muhammad said that I cannot read, this was a spiritual awakening that was happening to the Prophet, he could not read scripture, that why he was told to read in the name of your Lord who created!! Thus began his illiteracy in scripture and the spiritual world being done away with he now could read. But if were stuck on saying he was an illiterate meaning that he could not READ ROAD SIGNS ON HIS CARAVAN OR SIGNS SAYING DATES CLOTHS ECT.ECT. Then we have missed what is being conveyed to us. And we make the Prophet to seem like a dummy ah he couldn’t read or write.

Oh he couldn’t huh then how did he make Kadijah good money? How did he make contracts with people?? How did he keep a record of his trust with people?? Being that he was a very honest man people gave him their belongings when they went away and he would make profit for them with it so how did he conduct business by not reading and writing??
And when you answer that question then say to yourself then surely he must have been smart enough to read letters. An orphan with a good character and a good business savay is not able to read???

Cannot read scripture that makes sense hell I get confused sometimes reading the Bible but the Quran opens up its secrets(ok another topic). How many muslims cannot read the Arabic language?? But by reading the English they are able to still hold conversation on the Quran. Are they illiterate in Quranic scripture?? No their not what about the Arabic letters yes they are. But they can still read the Quran.

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Permalink Reply by Yusuf Abdullah on September 6, 2009 at 1:08pm

This is why Allah through Jabril told Muhammad to read, he didn’t say read a book Muhammad said that I cannot read, this was a spiritual awakening that was happening to the Prophet, he could not read scripture, that why he was told to read in the name of your Lord who created!! Thus began his illiteracy in scripture and the spiritual world being done away with he now could read. But if were stuck on saying he was an illiterate meaning that he could not READ ROAD SIGNS ON HIS CARAVAN OR SIGNS SAYING DATES CLOTHS ECT.ECT. Then we have missed what is being conveyed to us. And we make the Prophet to seem like a dummy ah he couldn’t read or write.
As Salamu Alaikum,IJazakAllah Kheiran for the topic Hanifa.Ramadan Mubarak Brothers and Sisters. Im not trying to cause problem but,was'nt The Angel Gabriel words to Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W)"recite"?which indicates from memory(Hafiz)

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Permalink Reply by Nash on September 6, 2009 at 3:34pm

yes bro its recite or read but the word is iqra which means read or recite. Read what though?? The 1st time he said read this is talking about the Torah, Muhammad was not skiled or a 'hafiz"or the Torah so he said i cannot reador i cannot recite, then he was squeezed again and told Iqra!! the second time is the Ingeel and again he was not skilled or hafiz of the ingeel, then came the 1st revelation of the Book that he was going to be Hafiz in... Read in the name of your Lord who created...

So Muhammad was known as a person who was not "Hafiz' or gifted with the understaning of the Bible. and brother your not causing any problem all information from muslims discussing our religion is never any problem at all. Dialouge is a beautiful thing.

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 7, 2009 at 5:16am

Bismillah

Salaams everyone,
Interesting discussion.

How did the Prophet write the Quran? We have no evidence by Quran or Hadith stating that the Prophet wrote any of the Quran, or anything else for that matter. As a matter of fact, when he made the treaty of Hudaybia with the Quraish, he appointed Ali to write for him because he couldn't read the words on the page. And when the Quraish wanted him to erase "the Messenger of Allah" from the treaty, he asked Ali to show him where that was on the page so he could erase it.

There's plenty of ayat and hadith that prove the Prophet didn't read or write.

Did he hear Allah's voice? OR........ wasn't it from his own life experiences that he learned the truth!

I think that Nash pretty much answered that question. Unless we have ayat or hadith stating that the Prophet heard Allah speaking to him through a sound medium, there's no basis to assume that this is true.

Now, the natural question would be: Why couldn't the Prophet read or write? Wouldn't that be a disadvantage and "disability" for him?

Living in a society that only receives knowledge from books, we don't have a good frame of reference to fully understand how a person could be smart without reading and writing. That is of course, if you are not recieving knowledge directly from God Himself!

In reality, this is one of the Prophet's miracles. I'll just list a few for us to ponder on:
1) In the first ayat that were revealed to the Prophet, Allah tells us, "Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth," In other words: Just as I have created you from nothing, I can give you knowledge without worldly means. And as we know, Allah did.

2) He had no means of learning the Books of the previous religions, as that would have been a claim against him, "You (O Prophet,) have never been reciting any book before this, nor have you been writing it with your right hand; had it been so, the adherents of falsehood would have raised doubts." [29:48]

3) In a literate society, we would generally believe that illiterate societies - like Quraish - would be dumb and ignorant, since they have no way of learning from the records of past experiences. However how do we explain how an illiterate man, from an illiterate nation and culture, knew knowledge and history that was only preserved in libraries of ancient societies, and other knowledge that was never been written at all? It had to come from Allah.

There's also a difference between the Prophet and Moses. Moses was not on the level of Prophet Muhammad, and this is why he asked for an aid -Aaron- to assist him, "and appoint for me, out of my kinsfolk, one who will help me to bear my burden: Aaron, my brother. Add Thou through him to my strength, and let him share my task, so that [together] we might abundantly extol Thy limitless glory, and remember Thee without cease!" [20:29-34]

And so Allah answered his prayer. "We shall strengthen thine arm through thy brother, and endow both of you with power, so that they will not be able to touch you: by virtue of Our messages shall you two, and all who follow you, prevail!" [28:35]

Prophet Muhammad, on the other hand, was in a different category. He didn't have to ask Allah; Allah did all of these things for him.
He opened up the Prophet's heart, "Have We not opened up thy heart," [94:1]
Instead of appointing someone to share the Prophet's burden He lifted the burden, "and lifted from thee the burden,"

Moses recognized this lofty status and even wanted to asked to be included among the followers of Muhammad, peace be upon them both.

That leaves us with another question: How could the Prophet do business without writing things down? The answer is: just as everyone else did business in the Arabian Peninsula; they memorized everything.

Furthermore, literal reading is not required to learn basic math. As a matter of fact, a person who can do math without a pen and pencil is always considered smarter than a person who has to rely on writing to do math. A "math genius" is someone who can do entire equations without writing a single number.

There are a lot of things we can say about this subject, but inshallah this should be enough to talk about and discuss. Allah knows best.

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 7, 2009 at 5:24am

Oh! One more thing...

The Prophet did not "produce" the Quran; he transmitted it. In other words, he was taught the words and meanings of the Quran, and he in turn taught the same words to the Companions.

You probably knew that already, but it is important not to use the wrong words to explain it, because it will give people a misunderstanding.

Allah knows best.

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Permalink Reply by Nash on September 7, 2009 at 8:53am

The first revelation is
Read! in the name of Thy Lord who created;
Created man from a clot of blood in the womb.
Read for thy Lord is the most beneficent,
He hath taught the use of the pen;
He hath taught man that which he knoweth not

So here Allah has revealed that He has taught the use of the pen, now why is this in the first revelation if Muhammad could not read at all? Of course men were always writing stuff but Allah says that it is He that has taught the use of the pen. Now is our prophet exempt from this teaching? He has taught man that which he knows not. What is it that man knows not?? We do not know or fully know Allah so before we can even write anything about God we have to realize that it is Allah who is teaching us what to write about Him(if we are correctly guided) So He has taught the use of the pen. Scripture is being written on the hearts of special people and they are taught how to write with the pen, what pen ?? The pen that Allah teaches us to use. This is education, correct education that’s being delivered to Muhammad. And Allah taught him that which he knew not, He did not fully know about Allah or the correct religious life but Allah taught him. So we are nolonger talking about regular writing or reading were talking on the reading and writing of that which Allah wants us to know. What is the correct use of the pen?? The correct use of the pen is not writing names or poems or business transactions, the correct use is to write down what Allah wants for the human being to be to bring us into our original pure human nature, and if we can be taught that then all other uses for the pen is correctly guided.

So when we say that Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate this is talking about being illiterate or unlettered in scripture. I agree with you 100% Hamza ,Muhammad(pbuh) was a genius and had excellent memory he could remember business transactions, things that he was trusted with, people, ect. ect. The most beautiful and excellent model of a human being. What I have a major problem with is how can a mind that reeks pure genius of retaining information could not retain any letters of the Arabic alphabet or words that was clearly posted around Mecca and other cities and reading was a trait of those people? They were ignorant in their ways and they went astray because of their messing with scripture, Even back 1400 years ago when the Prophet sent men out to different parts of region they went out with written messages. Clearly the men who were Hafiz of Quran and had excellent memory could easily memorize a letter and speak it to any king or ruler? But Muhammad sent letters with his seal rasool on the letter , with the Messenger of God on it. Now if he couldn’t read or write in that sense then Muhammad signed a letter that he himself could not read his own signature?? Imagine, Hey um dear Prophet what does this say at the bottom here?? Prophet Muhammad says" look go ask Ali or Abu Baker you know i cant read" You go ask Ali and he say oh it says Messenger of God. Your thoughts on that? mines would be ??????????????????WHAT!!!!!!!???????? He doesent know his own name???? Makes no sense.

I believe the problem is the same problem that the Christians have with Jesus in order for it to be a miracle it has to be something out of this world, Jesus had to literally heal the blind and for them that’s the Big miracle whereas that’s a kinder garden way of looking at the miracle. The real miracle is that he was taught by Allah and those who were blind and could not read scripture Jesus(pbuh) opened up their sight and they started to understand scripture. Look we’ve all heard this one…. Meccans too did ask the Prophet what miracles he could or had performed. Hinting that miracles as performed by the earlier Prophets would have no effect in his time, the Prophet pointed at the Quran and said in a metaphorical sense: "The Quran is my miracle


He POINTED at the Quran and said this is my miracle. Question: what Quran did he point to and how did he know it was Quran, how did he know that it was the Quran how did he know with 100% certainty that it was the Quran if he couldn’t read ?? What if one of the Meccans picked it up and said what does this say Muhammad?? UMMMMM go call Ali. You see this is how tribalizm started back up shites and sunni and all that. And as devilish as Shaton is there is not one evil challenge towards Muhammd challenging him to read something. Shaton would not have missed this opportuity especially when the Meccan were spreading rumours about him for sure they would have said hahaha Muhammad cant even read or write and yet he wants to produce a book somebody is writing it for him. And that would have been believed to if that was the case. But being that he could not read scripture and he came with some awesome words they resulted to saying that he is possesd a mad man hes crazy, they never said hes a crazy man who cant read. Surly this would have been exploited by his enemies

The miracle of reading and writing with Muhammad, is scripture, that is the bigger miracle being unlettered in scripture then reciting and teaching scripture is huge miracle. But not being able to read ordinary words is a kinder garden way of looking for a big miracle. And being a genius and not being able to read words like , the, and, dates, mecca, just doesn’t add up.

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 7, 2009 at 10:54am

I understand where your coming from, but I think you're mistaken by comparing our modern culture with premodern Arab culture.

In our society, everyone must know how to read and write. If someone doesn't then he is percieved as "uneducated" or "uncapable".

However, you have to look at this not from "our" perspective, but rather from "theirs". During the time of the Quraish, education was not based on reading and writing. There was nothing wrong with not knowing how to read or write, because that was not connected to Arab education. That was connected to Jewish and Christian education. No one sat down and taught the Prophet how to read. If someone did teach him, what evidence do you have for that?

And also, as I mentioned before, Allah said that if he were able to read his adversaries would have used that against him, "You (O Prophet,) have never been reciting any book before this, nor have you been writing it with your right hand; had it been so, the adherents of falsehood would have raised doubts."

You mentioned road signs... Unlike us, Bedouin Arabs did not rely on words and road signs to navigate through the desert. They relied on the stars, the winds, and natural landmarks. This was an integral part of Arab culture. Allah even mentions this. "and rivers and paths, so that you might find your way, as well as [various other] means of orientation: for [it is] by the stars that men find their way." [16:15-16]

As a matter of fact, back then a person would be considered "handicapped" if he had to rely on road signs and maps in order to travel. So we have to realize the difference between the social and cultural environment then and now.

As for the Prophet, peace and blessngs be upon him, not being able to read his name written on paper. This actually happened, as I previously mentioned regarding the treaty of Hudaibiya. They told the Prophet to erase his name, and he told Ali to do it for him, and when Ali refused he told 'Ali to show him where his name was and he erased it himself.

Now, did the Quraish laugh at him when they saw this? No, they didn't, because it was not a major issue for them, nor did it signify any "disability" on the Prophet's part. (look the hadith up and tell me what you find.)

We also have to remember that the Prophet's message was essentially a "Quran" (recitation), not a book (written book). Yes, the Quran was written as well, but to the Arabs it had more significance as a recitation (Quran) than as a book (kitab). Today we only focus on the "book" aspect because we don't have a strong oral tradition. This is why we can't use our own cultural situation as a standard to compare what happened during the Prophet's time. (at least in regards to literacy)

I for one don't see why the Prophet had to know how to read and write in order to be a Prophet... If he is being taught directly by Allah, why does he have to be able to read and write? Reading and writing are only a means to knowledge, and there is no knowledge that the Prophet needed to learn through reading and writing in order to be a Prophet. If so, what knowledge do you think he needed to know that required reading and writing?

As for the Prophet's seal - which he put on all of his official letters - that seal wasn't what you think it is. The seal was actually a "stamp" that was impressed on a piece of warm wax. It was like a ring with the words "Muhammad Messenger of Allah" engraved on it. So the Prophet didn't write his name on the letters, he "sealed" it with his stamp that was made for official letters.

My point is: If reading and writing are only a means to knowledge, not and an end, and the Prophet directly recieved knowledge from Allah, why is it so important for us to assume that he still needed the means? Especially since there is so much evidence contradicting that.

And finally, the hadith are clear. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him said that he could not read nor write, and he said that he was from a nation of illiterate people. To a "western-educated" academic, this might seem to be ludicrous, "kindergarden", or even ignorant, but that's only because reading and writing is the primary medium of education in the west. To be a Prophet, however, essentially means that information is not learned by reading and writing, but rather revealed through direct communication with the heavens.


Allah knows best.



Nash said:

The first revelation is
Read! in the name of Thy Lord who created; Created man from a clot of blood in the womb. Read for thy Lord is the most beneficent, He hath taught the use of the pen; He hath taught man that which he knoweth not So here Allah has revealed that He has taught the use of the pen, now why is this in the first revelation if Muhammad could not read at all? Of course men were always writing stuff but Allah says that it is He that has taught the use of the pen. Now is our prophet exempt from this teaching? He has taught man that which he knows not. What is it that man knows not?? We do not know or fully know Allah so before we can even write anything about God we have to realize that it is Allah who is teaching us what to write about Him(if we are correctly guided) So He has taught the use of the pen. Scripture is being written on the hearts of special people and they are taught how to write with the pen, what pen ?? The pen that Allah teaches us to use. This is education, correct education that’s being delivered to Muhammad. And Allah taught him that which he knew not, He did not fully know about Allah or the correct religious life but Allah taught him. So we are nolonger talking about regular writing or reading were talking on the reading and writing of that which Allah wants us to know. What is the correct use of the pen?? The correct use of the pen is not writing names or poems or business transactions, the correct use is to write down what Allah wants for the human being to be to bring us into our original pure human nature, and if we can be taught that then all other uses for the pen is correctly guided. So when we say that Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate this is talking about being illiterate or unlettered in scripture. I agree with you 100% Hamza ,Muhammad(pbuh) was a genius and had excellent memory he could remember business transactions, things that he was trusted with, people, ect. ect. The most beautiful and excellent model of a human being. What I have a major problem with is how can a mind that reeks pure genius of retaining information could not retain any letters of the Arabic alphabet or words that was clearly posted around Mecca and other cities and reading was a trait of those people? They were ignorant in their ways and they went astray because of their messing with scripture, Even back 1400 years ago when the Prophet sent men out to different parts of region they went out with written messages. Clearly the men who were Hafiz of Quran and had excellent memory could easily memorize a letter and speak it to any king or ruler? But Muhammad sent letters with his seal rasool on the letter , with the Messenger of God on it. Now if he couldn’t read or write in that sense then Muhammad signed a letter that he himself could not read his own signature?? Imagine, Hey um dear Prophet what does this say at the bottom here?? Prophet Muhammad says" look go ask Ali or Abu Baker you know i cant read" You go ask Ali and he say oh it says Messenger of God. Your thoughts on that? mines would be ??????????????????WHAT!!!!!!!???????? He doesent know his own name???? Makes no sense.

I believe the problem is the same problem that the Christians have with Jesus in order for it to be a miracle it has to be something out of this world, Jesus had to literally heal the blind and for them that’s the Big miracle whereas that’s a kinder garden way of looking at the miracle. The real miracle is that he was taught by Allah and those who were blind and could not read scripture Jesus(pbuh) opened up their sight and they started to understand scripture. Look we’ve all heard this one…. Meccans too did ask the Prophet what miracles he could or had performed. Hinting that miracles as performed by the earlier Prophets would have no effect in his time, the Prophet pointed at the Quran and said in a metaphorical sense: "The Quran is my miracle


He POINTED at the Quran and said this is my miracle. Question: what Quran did he point to and how did he know it was Quran, how did he know that it was the Quran how did he know with 100% certainty that it was the Quran if he couldn’t read ?? What if one of the Meccans picked it up and said what does this say Muhammad?? UMMMMM go call Ali. You see this is how tribalizm started back up shites and sunni and all that. And as devilish as Shaton is there is not one evil challenge towards Muhammd challenging him to read something. Shaton would not have missed this opportuity especially when the Meccan were spreading rumours about him for sure they would have said hahaha Muhammad cant even read or write and yet he wants to produce a book somebody is writing it for him. And that would have been believed to if that was the case. But being that he could not read scripture and he came with some awesome words they resulted to saying that he is possesd a mad man hes crazy, they never said hes a crazy man who cant read. Surly this would have been exploited by his enemies

The miracle of reading and writing with Muhammad, is scripture, that is the bigger miracle being unlettered in scripture then reciting and teaching scripture is huge miracle. But not being able to read ordinary words is a kinder garden way of looking for a big miracle. And being a genius and not being able to read words like , the, and, dates, mecca, just doesn’t add up.

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Permalink Reply by Nash on September 7, 2009 at 2:37pm

Oh no I totally understand the difference of our modern culture and the premodern Arab culture.
I understand that memory was vital back then and that not too much of things were put into book form. But there was writing and reading back then. There was written language, reading and writing was not just connected to Jewish and Christian education the Arabs were comprised of Jews and Christians as well. So the Jews and Christians were Arab people as well reading and writing that I’m speaking of is the understanding of the Torah and Injeel. To read the scriptures is not reading if you don’t understand what you’re reading right? The same is with the Quran I can read and recite Arabic all day but if I don’t understand what I’m reading then I’m not reading the Quran. Reading is about understanding it’s not just about looking at letters and pronouncing them its understanding what you are reading. And in that the Prophet was unlettered he knew no scripture it doesn’t mean that he couldn’t read it but it also mean that there was no understanding when it came to that Book.

That’s why he was squeezed twice IQRA This is saying read or recite pointing to the Torah, the next squeeze is the Injeel, if he had any knowledge or understood what was in those books he would have answered but he said I cannot then came the Read in the Name of your Lord ……… Now his eyes is opened now he understands now he has insight into scripture now Allah is teaching him. The correct use of the pen.

"You (O Prophet,) have never been reciting any book before this, nor have you been writing it with your right hand; had it been so, the adherents of falsehood would have raised doubts."

Yes and what is the right hand? Had Muhammad had full knowledge of the Torah or Injeel and understanding then he would most definitely been charged with stealing verses or trying to invent something out something old. But what cleared him was not the notion that he couldn’t read or write no what cleared him was the Fact that he grew up amongst these people and they knew him and they knew that he did not know any scripture he never recited any scripture to them he was considered a nice guy but he sure as heck did not know any scripture. So this ayat is proof that had he understood the scripture and was reciting or reading this they would have surly raised doubts. This is not talking about regular books were talking about the establishment of a great community being formed. And Muhammad reciting regular books would not raise any doubts.
But the reciting is the reciting of scripture books and the writing with the right hand is a man in position of scriptural power. These people were guilty of changing the words of scripture from their right places And had Muhammad been in a scholarly position amongst them then he would be accused of changing and doing this. The right hand if we are given our book in our right hand what happens to us? So this ayat brother is showing that neither was Muhammad a Hafiz any of those books nor was did he transcribe one.(King James version?? I know its waaaaaaaaay after him but you understand what I’m saying?)

"And rivers and paths, so that you might find your way, as well as [various other] means of orientation: for [it is] by the stars that men find their way.

Rivers are a representation of spiritual life and paths is balanced guidance and the stars are the leaders in community life.( example we all look up to our Imams and to the companions and to Muhammad(pbuh) in order to get guidance)
I know that they didn’t rely on road signs to navigate through the dessert however they did have signs and they did have words posted up and they did do business by writing things down, and Muhammad was a good business man. You mean to say that all of his transactions for Kadijah and not one of them were of written documentation when this was a habit practiced amongst them?

The treaty of Hudaibiya…..man I hate typing curse you Hamzah lol hhaha….ok
When the Muslims were poised to take up arms and attack Makkah, Othman returned to the Muslim camp with Suhail b Amr, an eminent citizen of Makkah, whom the Quraish sent to negotiate a treaty with the Muslims. Suhail was notorious for his hostility to Islam. He was one of the principal persecutors when the Holy Prophet declared his mission. He had fought in the Battle of Badr and had been taken captive. He was later ransomed. After a lengthy discussion, the Holy Prophet and Suhail came to terms and agreed to execute a treaty. Ali was commissioned to draft the treaty. The Holy Prophet dictated that it was a treaty between Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah, and the Quraish. Suhail objected to the preamble on the ground that the Quraish did not acknowledge him as the prophet of God and as such the reference to his prophethood should be omitted. Ali did not agree to omit the relevant words. Thereupon the Holy Prophet omitted these words himself.

See what we have here is Muhammad (pbuh) acting as the head of state dictating to his scribe what to write down (the same thing is done today). Now the scribe being a good Islamic scribe saw what Suhail said as an insult and would not erase what he wrote the hadith that you quoted shows the actions of a head of state speaking to his scribe about the words he had him write down. Now imagine im your scribe and I’m writing a lecture from you that you are reciting to me and in it you say Hamzah the great says… (a little bit of self worship slips in lol) now when I finished you look at me and say oh no I can’t say Hamzah the great erase that and I say no I think you can say it and you say pass me the lecture ok were is it where did I say Hamaza the great, and I say here and there. This doesn’t prove that you can’t read.

Yes and about the seal of the letters that’s what I’m talking about he has a ring that says Messenger of God and he can’t read it?? He can’t memorize those letters and read it?? Hard for me to swallow that.

If reading and writing were not a primary medium in the east then why the Prophet when concerning the captives whose families could not afford the ransom, he released them on condition that each of them would do a service, within his capability, for the Muslim community, such as teaching ten Muslim children how to read and write. So if this education was important of reading and writing so much so that a captive of war was set free once he taught people how to read and write, I don’t understand how it’s said that Muhammad couldn’t read or write. Why teach them how to read why not teach them your way if we are to follow Muhammad then we should not read either?? Do as I say and not as I do? No the prophet (Pbuh) was our best example. I believe when looking at reading and writing of the prophet (pbuh) we need really look at him not reading and writing scripture...

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Permalink Reply by Hamzah on September 8, 2009 at 3:44am

I had a feeling that you would turn everything into metaphors... lol

Oh no I totally understand the difference of our modern culture and the premodern Arab culture.
I understand that memory was vital back then and that not too much of things were put into book form. But there was writing and reading back then. There was written language, reading and writing was not just connected to Jewish and Christian education the Arabs were comprised of Jews and Christians as well.

I wasn't saying that Jews and Christians weren't Arabs. I am saying that for Jews and Christians, education was based on literacy, while Quraish and other tribes where not educated based on literacy. This is why the Quraish did not use literacy as a means to teach their people how to function in society.

So the Jews and Christians were Arab people as well reading and writing that I’m speaking of is the understanding of the Torah and Injeel. To read the scriptures is not reading if you don’t understand what you’re reading right? The same is with the Quran I can read and recite Arabic all day but if I don’t understand what I’m reading then I’m not reading the Quran. Reading is about understanding it’s not just about looking at letters and pronouncing them its understanding what you are reading. And in that the Prophet was unlettered he knew no scripture it doesn’t mean that he couldn’t read it but it also mean that there was no understanding when it came to that Book.

Reading and writing your own language is all about recognizing the letters and saying them. The reason why you can't understand the Quran when you read it in Arabic is because you don't understand Arabic language, not because you can't read.

On the other hand, if I gave you a book in english and you read it you would understand it at some level. People have different levels of understanding when reading their own language, but they are still understanding nonetheless.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that the Prophet said he could read, nor is there any evidence showing the Prophet writing anything. If it was so important for the Prophet to read and write, why can't we find one hadith informing us of this without using metaphorical acrobatics?

That’s why he was squeezed twice IQRA This is saying read or recite pointing to the Torah, the next squeeze is the Injeel, if he had any knowledge or understood what was in those books he would have answered but he said I cannot then came the Read in the Name of your Lord ……… Now his eyes is opened now he understands now he has insight into scripture now Allah is teaching him. The correct use of the pen.

Hmmm. What makes you think that "Read" must mean "read the bible?" or "read the Torah"? I see nothing that indicates this. This is a stretch at best. If this was consistent with your argument (that the Prophet could read) then the Prophet would have answered saying, "What should I read?" as opposed to, "I cannot read." Allah knows best.

"You (O Prophet,) have never been reciting any book before this, nor have you been writing it with your right hand; had it been so, the adherents of falsehood would have raised doubts."

Yes and what is the right hand? Had Muhammad had full knowledge of the Torah or Injeel and understanding then he would most definitely been charged with stealing verses or trying to invent something out something old. But what cleared him was not the notion that he couldn’t read or write no what cleared him was the Fact that he grew up amongst these people and they knew him and they knew that he did not know any scripture he never recited any scripture to them he was considered a nice guy but he sure as heck did not know any scripture. So this ayat is proof that had he understood the scripture and was reciting or reading this they would have surly raised doubts. This is not talking about regular books were talking about the establishment of a great community being formed. And Muhammad reciting regular books would not raise any doubts.
But the reciting is the reciting of scripture books and the writing with the right hand is a man in position of scriptural power. These people were guilty of changing the words of scripture from their right places And had Muhammad been in a scholarly position amongst them then he would be accused of changing and doing this. The right hand if we are given our book in our right hand what happens to us? So this ayat brother is showing that neither was Muhammad a Hafiz any of those books nor was did he transcribe one.(King James version?? I know its waaaaaaaaay after him but you understand what I’m saying?)

Yeah, I see what your saying, but the Quran said "any book", not "holy book" or "scripture". Again, I can see how you can come to your conclusion, but only if you start off by assuming that the aya is only speaking of holy scripture, as opposed to "all books".

"And rivers and paths, so that you might find your way, as well as [various other] means of orientation: for [it is] by the stars that men find their way."

Rivers are a representation of spiritual life and paths is balanced guidance and the stars are the leaders in community life.( example we all look up to our Imams and to the companions and to Muhammad(pbuh) in order to get guidance)
I know that they didn’t rely on road signs to navigate through the dessert however they did have signs and they did have words posted up and they did do business by writing things down, and Muhammad was a good business man. You mean to say that all of his transactions for Kadijah and not one of them were of written documentation when this was a habit practiced amongst them?

Sure, on a spiritual level rivers do represent life paths represent guidance...

However, here the Quran is speaking on a practical level as well. To the Arabs, Allah is speaking about the reality of how they used to travel. Are you saying that the Arabs relied on road signs like "Mecca: 20 miles" rather than the stars and natural landmarks. C'mon ak, all the evidence we have contradicts that.

The treaty of Hudaibiya…..man I hate typing curse you Hamzah lol hhaha….ok
When the Muslims were poised to take up arms and attack Makkah, Othman returned to the Muslim camp with Suhail b Amr, an eminent citizen of Makkah, whom the Quraish sent to negotiate a treaty with the Muslims. Suhail was notorious for his hostility to Islam. He was one of the principal persecutors when the Holy Prophet declared his mission. He had fought in the Battle of Badr and had been taken captive. He was later ransomed. After a lengthy discussion, the Holy Prophet and Suhail came to terms and agreed to execute a treaty. Ali was commissioned to draft the treaty. The Holy Prophet dictated that it was a treaty between Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah, and the Quraish. Suhail objected to the preamble on the ground that the Quraish did not acknowledge him as the prophet of God and as such the reference to his prophethood should be omitted. Ali did not agree to omit the relevant words. Thereupon the Holy Prophet omitted these words himself.
See what we have here is Muhammad (pbuh) acting as the head of state dictating to his scribe what to write down (the same thing is done today). Now the scribe being a good Islamic scribe saw what Suhail said as an insult and would not erase what he wrote the hadith that you quoted shows the actions of a head of state speaking to his scribe about the words he had him write down. Now imagine im your scribe and I’m writing a lecture from you that you are reciting to me and in it you say Hamzah the great says… (a little bit of self worship slips in lol) now when I finished you look at me and say oh no I can’t say Hamzah the great erase that and I say no I think you can say it and you say pass me the lecture ok were is it where did I say Hamaza the great, and I say here and there. This doesn’t prove that you can’t read.

I had a feeling that you would say that... Ok. Let's take a more clear hadith that is more direct.

Allah says, "So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Unlettered Prophet (ummi), who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright." [7:158]

(Ummi) has only one meaning in Arabic: a person who cannot read or write. That is how the Prophet used the word, and that is how all arabs used the word.

Yes and about the seal of the letters that’s what I’m talking about he has a ring that says Messenger of God and he can’t read it?? He can’t memorize those letters and read it?? Hard for me to swallow that.

It's possible for him to memorize symbols... Look, I'm not saying that he didn't have the ability to learn to read. What I'm saying is that he didn't have a need to know how to read and write in the first place. If Allah wants him to read and write, then it would have happened and we would have plenty of Hadith showing the Prophet read and writing, but the Prophet himself says that he doesn't read or write, and that's because he doesn't need to learn or teach through that medium.

If reading and writing were not a primary medium in the east then why the Prophet when concerning the captives whose families could not afford the ransom, he released them on condition that each of them would do a service, within his capability, for the Muslim community, such as teaching ten Muslim children how to read and write. So if this education was important of reading and writing so much so that a captive of war was set free once he taught people how to read and write, I don’t understand how it’s said that Muhammad couldn’t read or write. Why teach them how to read why not teach them your way if we are to follow Muhammad then we should not read either?? Do as I say and not as I do? No the prophet (Pbuh) was our best example. I believe when looking at reading and writing of the prophet (pbuh) we need really look at him not reading and writing scripture...

No brother, I think your looking at it from the wrong angle. Instead of asking, "why did the Prophet allow captives to teach the people," the real question would be, "Why didn't the Prophet himself teach the people how to read and write, just as he taught them how to recite?" The answer is obvious: because he didn't read and write, and because that was not essential for him to be a Prophet. He did not have to be "literally educated", nor did he need the means of conventional education to teach the Quran.

If you think that not reading and writing is a defect of Prophethood, then I can see why you're saying what you're saying. I just don't think it is a defect. It's not about how you learn, it's about what you know. And since Quran and sunna clearly indicates that he didn't read or write, I think it is safe to conclude - as virtually all the scholars concluded - that there was no need for him to learn to read or write, since Allah took charge of his education.

Allah knows best.

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